Woodworking Business

You are not logged in. [ Login ] Why log in
(NOTE: Login is not required to post)

Cabinetshop management question

10/10/17       
cabmaker

I have a question about management style.

Lets assume you have a diverse staff that work in close proximity to each other. They bring to the table a wide range of experience and perspective. Some of them have a lot of background and some not so much. Some of them are very flexible in their thinking and some very rigid.

The lesser experienced people are more curious about why we do things the way we do. Some of the experienced ones are receptive to these questions and somewhat curious themselves but some of the experienced ones are more like a barnacle. Their calcification started early in life and layered more and more confidence in what what they took for granted as the fundamentals.

Ostensibly this diverse group of people come together for a common cause but in fact the thing they have most in common is the perspective of every-man-for-himself.

The experienced people sometimes are very protective of their turf. Sometimes this is because of a passionate belief in the righteousness of their methods. Sometimes the real reason is they don't want to help the newbies learn because they look at this as diluting marketshare and creating a competitor.

As cabinet shop owners we are top man on the totem pole. Our word is the word. We usually have the most amount of experience and because we were in on every phone call we think we know what is best for each of our customers.

Since we can't be everywhere at once we hire somebody to represent us. These shop foremen need to be able to navigate the diverse interests of all the people involved. The shop foreman has several constituents but of all of them the shop owner is the most equal.

So we send the foreman out to the shop floor with the authority to represent us. We have informed the crew he is our representative and if he says something they should assume it came from us.

What would happen if this shop foreman told the crew to do something but we immediately tweeted that he was completely wrong headed in his thinking and if we were so much smarter than him?

Would the crew listen to this foreman any more?

10/11/17       #2: Cabinetshop management question ...
Joe

Website: http://joescustomcabinetry.com

I would argue that the answer is irrelevant. The issue is that the owner doesn't know how to lead, doesn't know how to support his foreman, doesn't know how to train his foreman, doesn't know how to assemble a team that supports each other for a common goal. Until that's corrected it matters little if the workers listen to the foreman.

10/11/17       #3: Cabinetshop management question ...
cabmaker

In his memoirs, Taichi Ohno (founder of the Toyota Way) wrote that in order to get a worker to write down a set of Standard-Operating-Procedures that was useful to his co-workers he had to first be convinced of it's importance. The key is getting people's self-interest aligned with the goals of the organization.

One time when I was waiting in a doctor's office I happened to pick up a coffee table book about the accomplishments of black women in America. One of the stories was about a school teacher who had instructed a lot of very illustrious military leaders. According to the story people used to compliment her all the time about all the famous leaders who spent time in her classroom.

Her response was that this was not unusual. According to this lady one-in-ten people were born a natural leader. What she was impressed with was a natural leader who could be lead.

This is the person you want as a foreman for your company.

The math, however, makes this difficult. To find this person you are looking for 10% of the 10%. Then you got to get this guy to stay down on the farm.

Since you can't always count on inspiration you need to put your focus on mitigation. You need to set up infrastructure and systems to guide people to the correct result. The culture of your organization is kind of like a featherboard on a tablesaw. The feather board will not of itself propel you to success but it can go a long ways to help everybody stay focused on the goal.

For cultural change you need buy-in at the top. As they say, a fish starts to rot at the head.

10/11/17       #4: Cabinetshop management question ...
TonyF

The example you give of overriding your foreman shows a lack of what business people call unity of command.

When I first started in this trade (early 70's) I was assigned as a helper to one cabinetmaker. He gave me my working tasks to accomplish, I learned how he did things, and as long as I worked under him I was expected to do things his way.

The shop foreman almost never came to me to ask what I was doing or why I was doing it that way, unless I was about to endanger myself or others using the machinery. In fact, about the only contact I had with the shop foreman was when he handed out paychecks.

The cabinetmaker I worked under did not talk to the owner unless he was asking for a raise. Everything he did was assigned through the shop foreman. Larger tasks were split up, with several cabinetmakers taking their cues from the shop foreman.

The shop foreman had the autonomy to hire and fire, assign work, address plant and machinery issues; he ran the shop. The owner sold work and was the face of the company. He would occasionally wander through the shop, but more often than not this was showboating with a potential client.

Haphazard management styles, while they lead to more flexibility for the owner, leave the employees questioning the chain of command and the foreman questioning his own authority.

If you do this too many times, you will piss off your shop foreman, who will quit, and you will be addressing future issues by having to look for a new shop foreman. This is what happened in the shop where I was foreman.

If this happens frequently enough, perhaps you should be foreman.

TonyF

10/11/17       #5: Cabinetshop management question ...
David R Sochar Member

At our best, we had a 6 man shop with diverse people, diverse projects, and diverse skills and styles.
We did not have a foreman, but this never seemed to be a problem except when two guys were heading for the panel saw at the same time. Since 1. They were adults and 2. They always had multiple things to do, this was never a problem.

When I handed out a job, we talked about it briefly, and I made my suggestions about how things might go. This was one way - me to maker. Then he was expected to come back after a bit (20 min to a day or more) with questions, concerns, changes, mistakes he found (they loved that), and conversation. This was mostly one way, the other way. I found myself more often than not saying - "You're the expert, you decide, I just don't want to see the time piling up" or "...see the scrap piling up". Or "See how things go. If they go well, then try your experiment and hopefully we will all gain by your success or failure."

What had happened was that I had coworkers that were as good as I - or better. They may not have the historical perspective, or formal knowledge, or charm and good looks, but they could whip hell out of a cut list and dance with the shaper.

I transitioned to the point where I did not have to be the one that 'ran' everything. These guys were successful parents, sons, neighbors, friends and employees. They took responsibility for their mistakes and could run their lives. Perfect? Not by a long shot. But neither am I.

This was so liberating for me that it took well over year to adapt to it. For all of us. But once it was in (informally) place, we were more productive, had more respect for each other, trusted each other, and worked together or independently without classic Dickensian supervision.

Eventually, the only vestige of a foreman we had was a shopping list - a clipboard on a nail - where anyone that saw we needed anything would write it down and it would appear soon. This did expand to include a separate wish list - products or tools or whatever that someone thought we could use. I made a solid effort to have my office person dedicated to procuring all these items as quickly as possible. "For want of a nail..."

10/11/17       #6: Cabinetshop management question ...
cabmaker

David,

So let me get this straight.
You are saying that you were able to juxtapose diversity with proximity and not have unnecessary conflict?

10/11/17       #7: Cabinetshop management question ...
cabmaker

Let me clarify.

For this to be successful they had to be good citizens and adult-like in their behavior?

10/11/17       #8: Cabinetshop management question ...
David R Sochar Member

We had some guys that did better with each other and some that did not do well with each other. I could mostly avoid trying to mix oil and water, or if not - all hands in one project- it was easy enough to hand out separate assignments so they did not have to share space. While there were one or two that could have been prima-donnas, they were not because everyone gets humbled in this work, and that attitude was not tolerated unless it was ironic.

If I did have a supervisory capacity, it was to cajole and humor and firmly guide them, threatening them with Dickens readings or opera on the shop audio. Or whup 'em bad and send 'em to bed with no gruel.

Well, you know, I got tired of trying to be the guy that changed them or saved them or whatever. I wanted the best. I needed the best, so why would I settle for less? Several of my employees went on to be teachers, a pharmacist, a doctor's aide, a business owner, and more. I could tell in 5-8 minutes if I needed to continue an interview.

10/12/17       #9: Cabinetshop management question ...
cabmaker

Crew management has changed a lot over the years. I think back to the crews I had many years ago. These fellows were old enough to have parents that grew up in the Depression and lived through the horror of World War Two. This was a much different group than the millennials I work with today.

For the most part it comes down to situational awareness. People my age are two or three generations closer to our tree lemur ancestors. They are the ones that really had it rough. A tree leaf could be just a tree leaf or it could also be a snake. A shadow crossing the ground could be a cloud in front of the sun or it could be that bird again.

You see it all around you. Seventy years ago people all over Europe were standing for days in box cars as they we being shuttled to Auschwitz for the crime of merely believing in a different god.

The snowflake of today thinks that if he can't get four bars of cellphone reception or he has to live in a community with who people don't look like him that life is unfair and he needs to be protected. We see this on the college campuses and with the wannabee nazis and white supremists.

There are people still alive today who actually rode in those box cars. Tell them sometime how tough your life is.

Is all about mitigation. You have to think of management as being like a featherboard on a table saw.

A cattle car rider's story

10/13/17       #10: Cabinetshop management question ...
Pat Gilbert

David's story illustrates the less government the better.

Ironic.

Great story BTW, as illustrative as your posts about building your awesome projects.

10/13/17       #11: Cabinetshop management question ...
Kekaha man

I don't know what you meant when you said in your OP:

"What would happen if this shop foreman told the crew to do something but WE immediately tweeted that he was completely wrong headed in his thinking and if WE were so much smarter than him?"

Who is the "we"?

If it's the owner, you don't understand your responsibility as the general manager of your shop, nor even the fundamental rules of relationships, i.e. you don't publicly dress someone down without first trying to resolve the situation privately.

If it's one of the employees, then the foreman deals with them, the same way you would if you didn't have a foreman. As you say, the foreman is your representative.

As for the general role, duties and relationship of a foreman, it seems you have it pretty well defined.

We didn't have a foreman for many years. My business partner acted in the role, but he was not actually IN the shop all that much and as a result much of what happened was whatever the guys felt like doing. When my partner left I assigned the only employee that I thought had any chance of doing the job, although I honestly didn't think he was capable. Didn't show real leadership qualities - certainly not 1 in 10 out of 10. However, being in the position changed him. He's been my foreman for almost 9 years now, and the shop runs so much more efficient than when my partner was here that it's almost unbelievable. I have been able to take off as much as a month and everything runs as smoothly as if I was sitting upstairs. I love my "job", but I think the key to success a business owner is to make yourself unnecessary.

Not sure exactly what the lesson is, except maybe that certain people need a leader, and certain people have hidden capabilities that just need a chance to shine.

10/15/17       #12: Cabinetshop management question ...
David R Sochar

Kekaha Man's last two sentences are worth rereading:

"I love my "job", but I think the key to success a business owner is to make yourself unnecessary.

Not sure exactly what the lesson is, except maybe that certain people need a leader, and certain people have hidden capabilities that just need a chance to shine."

10/15/17       #13: Cabinetshop management question ...
Pat Gilbert

Good point, make yourself unnecessary.

Initially a company needs a goal maker, after that the task at hand is to build an organization. AKA passing hats to others.

I look at Fastcap as an example of this.

11/17/17       #14: Cabinetshop management question ...
Jeff Finney Member

Website: http://ultcab.com

Great topic about how to manage a shop. My cabinet component shop has had high turnover in the past but about 2 years ago we started figuring out the recipe. There's no special sauce precisely, but there are a few guidelines that we follow as a general rule.
1. Tuesday morning meetings are a must for everyone. This starts with a sales meeting and schedule talks. Then the lead men break out in their "toolbox" talks to go over specific items pertinent to them.
2. ALL employees are part of the SOP system. This takes SOP's out of the realm of 'have to' and into 'I get to'. Employees have the freedom to change, edit, modify, or add to SOP's. They talk about it with their group at the weekly meeting, and if it is agreed then the SOP is changed. We have ours on Trello so everyone can access easy. SOP's are overlooked as an important tool for employee engagement.
3. As the owner i no longer work on the shop floor. This was a tough one, but as it turned out I was a large part of the problem with my crew issues. Now that we have a little structure i get to focus on new products, creating content, and posting on forums occasionally.
Hope this helps!


Post a Response
  • Notify me of responses to this thread
  • Subscribe to email updates on this Forum
  • To receive email notification of additions to this forum thread,
    enter your name and email address, and then click the
    "Keep Me Posted" button below.

    Please Note: If you have posted a message or response,
    do not submit this request ... you are already signed up
    to receive notification!

    Your Name:
    E-Mail Address:
    Enter the correct numbers into the field below:
     

    Date of your Birth:



    Return to top of page

    Buy & Sell Exchanges | Forums | Galleries | Site Map

    FORUM GUIDELINES: Please review the guidelines below before posting at WOODWEB's Interactive Message Boards (return to top)

  • WOODWEB is a professional industrial woodworking site. Hobbyist and homeowner woodworking questions are inappropriate.
  • Messages should be kept reasonably short and on topic, relating to the focus of the forum. Responses should relate to the original question.
  • A valid email return address must be included with each message.
  • Advertising is inappropriate. The only exceptions are the Classified Ads Exchange, Machinery Exchange, Lumber Exchange, and Job Opportunities and Services Exchange. When posting listings in these areas, review the posting instructions carefully.
  • Subject lines may be edited for length and clarity.
  • "Cross posting" is not permitted. Choose the best forum for your question, and post your question at one forum only.
  • Messages requesting private responses will be removed - Forums are designed to provide information and assistance for all of our visitors. Private response requests are appropriate at WOODWEB's Exchanges and Job Opportunities and Services.
  • Messages that accuse businesses or individuals of alleged negative actions or behavior are inappropriate since WOODWEB is unable to verify or substantiate the claims.
  • Posts with the intent of soliciting answers to surveys are not appropriate. Contact WOODWEB for more information on initiating a survey.
  • Excessive forum participation by an individual upsets the balance of a healthy forum atmosphere. Individuals who excessively post responses containing marginal content will be considered repeat forum abusers.
  • Responses that initiate or support inappropriate and off-topic discussion of general politics detract from the professional woodworking focus of WOODWEB, and will be removed.
  • Participants are encouraged to use their real name when posting. Intentionally using another persons name is prohibited, and posts of this nature will be removed at WOODWEB's discretion.
  • Comments, questions, or criticisms regarding Forum policies should be directed to WOODWEB's Systems Administrator
    (return to top).

    Carefully review your message before clicking on the "Send Message" button - you will not be able to revise the message once it has been sent.

    You will be notified of responses to the message(s) you posted via email. Be sure to enter your email address correctly.

    WOODWEB's forums are a highly regarded resource for professional woodworkers. Messages and responses that are crafted in a professional and civil manner strengthen this resource. Messages that do not reflect a professional tone reduce the value of our forums.

    Messages are inappropriate when their content: is deemed libelous in nature or is based on rumor, fails to meet basic standards of decorum, contains blatant advertising or inappropriate emphasis on self promotion (return to top).

    Libel:   Posts which defame an individual or organization, or employ a tone which can be viewed as malicious in nature. Words, pictures, or cartoons which expose a person or organization to public hatred, shame, disgrace, or ridicule, or induce an ill opinion of a person or organization, are libelous.

    Improper Decorum:   Posts which are profane, inciting, disrespectful or uncivil in tone, or maliciously worded. This also includes the venting of unsubstantiated opinions. Such messages do little to illuminate a given topic, and often have the opposite effect. Constructive criticism is acceptable (return to top).

    Advertising:   The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not an advertising venue. Companies participating in a Forum discussion should provide specific answers to posted questions. WOODWEB suggests that businesses include an appropriately crafted signature in order to identify their company. A well meaning post that seems to be on-topic but contains a product reference may do your business more harm than good in the Forum environment. Forum users may perceive your references to specific products as unsolicited advertising (spam) and consciously avoid your web site or services. A well-crafted signature is an appropriate way to advertise your services that will not offend potential customers. Signatures should be limited to 4-6 lines, and may contain information that identifies the type of business you're in, your URL and email address (return to top).

    Repeated Forum Abuse: Forum participants who repeatedly fail to follow WOODWEB's Forum Guidelines may encounter difficulty when attempting to post messages.

    There are often situations when the original message asks for opinions: "What is the best widget for my type of shop?". To a certain extent, the person posting the message is responsible for including specific questions within the message. An open ended question (like the one above) invites responses that may read as sales pitches. WOODWEB suggests that companies responding to such a question provide detailed and substantive replies rather than responses that read as a one-sided product promotion. It has been WOODWEB's experience that substantive responses are held in higher regard by our readers (return to top).

    The staff of WOODWEB assume no responsibility for the accuracy, content, or outcome of any posting transmitted at WOODWEB's Message Boards. Participants should undertake the use of machinery, materials and methods discussed at WOODWEB's Message Boards after considerate evaluation, and at their own risk. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages it deems inappropriate. (return to top)


  • Forum Posting Help
    Your Name The name you enter in this field will be the name that appears with your post or response (return to form).
    Your Website Personal or business website links must point to the author's website. Inappropriate links will be removed without notice, and at WOODWEB's sole discretion. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    E-Mail Address Your e-mail address will not be publicly viewable. Forum participants will be able to contact you using a contact link (included with your post) that is substituted for your actual address. You must include a valid email address in this field. (return to form)
    Subject Subject may be edited for length and clarity. Subject lines should provide an indication of the content of your post. (return to form)
    Thread Related Link and Image Guidelines Thread Related Links posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should point to locations that provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related Link that directs visitors to an area with inappropriate content will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    Thread Related File Uploads Thread Related Files posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. Video Files: acceptable video formats are: .MOV .AVI .WMV .MPEG .MPG .MP4 (Image Upload Tips)   If you encounter any difficulty when uploading video files, E-mail WOODWEB for assistance. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related File that contains inappropriate content will be removed, and uploaded files that are not directly related to the message thread will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links, files, or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)