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Subject: Re: Type II pva and Western red cedar

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Message Thread:

Type II pva and Western red cedar

5/10/20       
Tom Gardiner

This a follow up from a few threads in the last couple of years.
I have been making doors and James from WRC for about ten years using Titebond II and similar glue from another manufacturer. I make about forty per year. These are for large tents. They consist of ~2 x 6 clear cedar frame and 70" x 27 x 5/8" floating panel. Cedar is used for it's light weight and weather resistance. These doors take a lot of abuse. The often take full sun and rain exposure and are generally up for three seasons while some are up year round and get deep snow.
I finally got a look at a door returned that had been in the field for three years of continuous use. While the cedar had greyed and some cracks happened (1/4" deep in the panel) none of the glue joints showed any failure whatsoever. I was shocked at the condition of the cedar. The owner had the door facing south and the climate is very wet in the spring and summer and metres of snow. There was also no upkeep of the oil finish.
All this to say I have found that type II pva is suitable for cedar even in the poorest conditions.

5/11/20       #2: Type II pva and Western red cedar ...
David R Sochar Member

Obviously, you have it right for gluing for width and joinery.

If you have not un into any complete glue failures, you are lucky.

Before I realized why PVA and WRC did not spell god joints, I was dumbfounded. Laminations in clamps for 30 hours come apart with wet glue like it was just clamped 30 seconds ago. Mortise and tenon joints where one is strong enough to destroy the wood when 'diassembled' and another shows wet glue.

Since I had the conversation with a Titebond tech, he explained that some WRC was showing a high amount of oil extractives. About 25% of the WRC they tested had enough oil to repel TB1,2,3 - as well as any other water based glue. Their solution? Wipe off the surfaces to be glued with paper towels saturated with acetone. Keep wiping until no brown (oil extractives) would show up on the towels. How does one know which boards to wipe down and which ones are OK? Wipe 'em all was his answer.

I admit that I have been telling people this for a few years, and all I get are looks like I am crazy. Most field carpenters here cannot spell "Learn your craft" much less live it, so they continue to do what they want. Other mill people will not talk to me, afraid I will abscond with all their knowledge and go make $40k a year instead of their $35k. So

I can't say I have had anyone else observe the same results I have.

5/13/20       #3: Type II pva and Western red cedar ...
Kevin Dunphy

Website: http://www.kdunphy.com

I don't make a lot of doors .I was shocked to find trite-bound goes soft when it gets wet .I was lucky only used trietbound on my front door .

The other doors I used Elmer's ProBond Max Wood Glue, Interior/Exterior .The glue was thick which I really like.

One thing I did was add a little PL when I was gluing which expanded the glue which in turn forced the glue in the pores

No failures fingers crossed .I've seen some of the doors I made 5 years later no open joints like my front door

Another thing I did by accident [what mean is could not get 8/4]is use 4/4 African mahogany laminate 3 pieces the door ends up being 2 1/4 thick

I will will wipe great idea

5/15/20       #4: Type II pva and Western red cedar ...
Kevin Dunphy

Also thanks for the heads up I would not have had a clue ,about the glue unless I read the post

5/16/20       #5: Type II pva and Western red cedar ...
Joe Wood  Member

Website: woodsshop.com/

I've glued a lot of WRC with TBond III, I've noticed it's the darker color pieces that the glue doesn't hold well.

6/26/20       #6: Type II pva and Western red cedar ...
Adam

Website: h

I've been making cedar signs with WRC for almost 20 yrs. I use LePages "Outdoor Weatherproof Glue" now exclusively. Never had a glue failure - even signs left "raw" (without any kind of finish/varnish etc.) No special prep. Inexpensive and widely available.

 

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