Also osage orange and white oak are among the best in the middle of the country. I detest the idea of cutting rain forests and shipping the wood half the way around the world to make a deck.

Quarter sawn White Oak.

If the treads rotted in ten years, perhaps the stringers are showing some wear.

This is a good example of why encapsulating wood in epoxy is a bad idea. It makes a mess manufacturing it, using it, disposing of it, and flaking off into the lake.

Is the underside ventilated? If they are enclosed like a stoop you may need to add vents.

Rich C, I used to feel the same as you about tropical woods. I now feel differently. Jon Arno had a good article in Fine Woodworking going over the topic in detail. This was in the late ‘90s if memory serves correct. He stated that developing countries in South America will protect and manage rain forests, because the timber was so valuable. A cash crop so to speak. If the tropical woods didn’t have value, they would cut and clear the forest to use it in other fashions.
I remember the 2000’s, when there was a ban on Mahogany. Brazil, having much less value to their trees, decided it would be better to slash and burn the forest and raise corn and beef to feed their people. They planted so much corn, they turned energy independent as they made ethanol and other fuels from the corn.
So as I see it, buying tropical woods actually helps preserve the rainforest. Transporting via freighter around the world is one of the most eco friendly ways of transport also. Plus, those decks last 50plus years. Another win. Just My thoughts. Always try to look at the other side of things!

Matt, I would completely agree if there wasn't corruption and black markets. Elephants are protected too, but poaching is still a huge problem because there is still a market for ivory. Completely eliminate the market and there is no poaching. Same goes for forests.

One example of what happens with total bans is that of Brazilian Rosewood.

For several centuries, Brazilian Rosewood was sought after and nearly logged out of existence by the 1960's. Farmers would build roads so they could farm - another word for clear cut - slash and burn style. In a rain forest, all the nutrients are in the biosystem, not in the soil like here in N America. So, they would farm an area for a few years until the nutrients were played out, then clear cut more forest for the next farm.
While clear cutting, if they noticed a Rosewood log, they would segregate it and sell it for a few bucks. It would find its way out onto the World market and be sold for retail around $20.00 per b/f.
But after the Cites Ban, the log could not be exported, and it was illegal to cut. Suddenly it had no value, so it gets burned along with all the rest.
The unintended consequences of what seems to be a reasonable action are a good way to find our way out of the mess of regulations, beliefs, and reality.

but we digress...

Another way to look at it is somebody else 10 years ago cut up some clear Doug fir. Coated it in epoxy then slathered it with liquid plastic(paint). Now, it’s all being taken to the dump.

The green thing is super complicated.

It pains me how many cedar & redwood trees we cut down, mill, ship, nail to a house, paint with liquid plastic. Wait 10 years and grind it off contaminating the soil. Then apply more liquid plastic. Rinse & repeat every 10 years.

From a green standpoint vinyl siding is far superior.

White oak is available and local. It will last a long time if painted.

There's no way something cut thousands of miles away and then shipped by an oil burning ship can be considered green in any way. I'm not saying not to use some tropical wood; only that it's not a green choice compared to a local wood.

John

"The green thing is super complicated."

That bears repeating. But the cycle - cut wood, paint with epoxy/paint/plastic, then haul to dump - omits "plant White Oak trees". Renewability is good for the planet, the forest, the woodworker and the people on the planet.

I have planted well over 400 trees, mostly hardwoods. Started in 1985. While I now only get the occasional stick or some firewood from my trees, I know (or "It is my hope") that someone will benefit from the trees. Shade, wind break, lumber, nuts, whatever. I just there is someone out there that understands woods, their uses and qualities that can benefit us so much.

I regularly see White Oak sills, in a semi exposed situation, that are 75 years old, and never had paint or finish on them. They are gray and sometimes a bit furrowed, but as solid as the day they were set.

We have been using this paint schedule for nearly 30 years with good success.

1 Bora-care all six sides
2 Penetrating paintable water repellant all six sides
3 Oil prime all six sides
4 Assemble
5 touch up primer
6 Top coat, at least two coats good quality paint

I did several experiments with this on my own house so I could monitor it. Built a yellow poplar trimmed porch, stupid right. Lasted 20 years with no rot, I removed it to put a new addition on the house. It was remarkable how solid everything was including the railing, birds mouths at balusters etc..

Wood storm windows, 28 years still sound.

Accoya looks promising. But we have only been using it for about 4 years. Hard to get right now. It is a little brittle, nailing outside miters and things like that, tends to chip easily. Very stable.

I visited a huge project that I worked on in the late 1990s, all pattern grade Honduran mahogany. Whole place is a rotten mess. Contributing factors were many on that particular job, but none the less, it really did not hold up.

On a job right now where they used some kind of a very hard mahogany, maybe African or Sepele, It seems to have held up pretty well. I am told the work is 15-20 years old.

For what its worth.

Mike- It is worth a lot. To get real feedback from the real world is very helpful as we try to find materials that will last in exposure. No one I know of is doing testing of several species/strategies to see what makes for better choices. Yet we - woodworkers, architects, designers, builders and homeowners- all are craving knowledge on the subject.
If we can affirm a long life on the things we make, the cost is justified. If a project has $20,000 worth of labor, and lasts 20 years, the labor is supported at the rate of $1,000/year. But if it lasts 40 years, then the labor becomes $500 per year, and is easier to justify.

Yes, we need to know all we can, even if only apocryphal, for our livelihood hangs in the balance.

We have been using this paint schedule for nearly 30 years with good success.

1 Bora-care all six sides
2 Penetrating paintable water repellant all six sides
3 Oil prime all six sides
4 Assemble
5 touch up primer
6 Top coat, at least two coats good quality paint

I did several experiments with this on my own house so I could monitor it. Built a yellow poplar trimmed porch, stupid right. Lasted 20 years with no rot, I removed it to put a new addition on the house. It was remarkable how solid everything was including the railing, birds mouths at balusters etc..

Wood storm windows, 28 years still sound.

Accoya looks promising. But we have only been using it for about 4 years. Hard to get right now. It is a little brittle, nailing outside miters and things like that, tends to chip easily. Very stable.

I visited a huge project that I worked on in the late 1990s, all pattern grade Honduran mahogany. Whole place is a rotten mess. Contributing factors were many on that particular job, but none the less, it really did not hold up.

On a job right now where they used some kind of a very hard mahogany, maybe African or Sepele, It seems to have held up pretty well. I am told the work is 15-20 years old.

For what its worth.

Thanks for the response, this project got postponed until the fall, but I am thankful for you sharing your experience. In your painting schedule, what are you using for item #2, a penetrating water repellent? Thanks again.

Mike,

That is the most extreme, costly rot prevention protocols I have ever read or heard about.

I'm not trying to be negative, but there has to be a more cost effective solution. I can imagine doing something that extreme if you were building in a known termite area.

If our highly rot resistant woods(cedar) are no longer dependable perhaps we need to completely rethink the whole game. Actually choosing plastics in specific cases because they are the correct choice.

I don't like milling plastic in the shop, but it's got beat applying coat upon coat of nasty stuff to a piece of rot prone wood.

At this stage we still use spanish cedar, cedar, redwood, sapele, red meranti for our exterior work.

If its near a known issue like end grain near a moisture source we will coat the end up about 3/4" with a general non diluted epoxy(West System or whatever I'm using at the time).

I've got a red meranti picnic table I made in 2000 for my wife's birthday. I did the epoxy on the legs and its been unfinshed sitting outside on the lawn in Connecticut for 22 years. Zero rot.

I built some quick cheap(8) 3' window boxes for my own house out 1x 8 C & better red cedar. Only screwed together with stainless decking screws. I did a 2 coat prime job with BIN shellac primer. Filled them with dirt and flowers. My wife(her boxes of course) said she would paint the outsides. She never did it. They were there only primed for 15 years. I took them off to repaint to sell the house. Zero rot. No paint delamination. BIN(because it is a sealer not just a primer) & Cedar is a winner. I guess I would rate it for direct burial. I wish I did it on my fence posts.

Adam, while I do appreciate all opinions, people who use the terms “always and never”, I have learned to always approach with caution(one of the absolutes I know to be true is nothing is always or never).
If you had taken the time to look up Bora, as I did as I had not heard of it either, it’s what appears to be a green product. While I’m not a complete sandal wearing hippie, I am concerned about the world I leave my children.
The picnic table you referenced sounds like it has no finish. Of course it can dry out without finish and last a long time.
Perhaps your wife’s flower boxes are made of old growth wood that is much more rot resistant than the newer trees? I live in cedar country, and I would never expect a flower box like that to survive 3-5 years. Is there an metal or plastic insert to the box helping the wood survive? I am a fan of Bin primer, there is a difference between surfaces that get walked on and surfaces that are nearly for show. Some people live in tougher climates than you do (as we have discussed before). Just because one thing works in one place does not mean it will work in another. The farmers around here would laugh at priming the buried portions of fence posts, it will only act as a condom, and hold the water inside the post, not let it dry.

Thanks for the response, this project got postponed until the fall, but I am thankful for you sharing your experience. In your painting schedule, what are you using for item #2, a penetrating water repellent? Thanks again.

Matt Calnen,

I actually did look up the Bora-care. It's exactly what I thought it would be. It's boric acid also known as borax. Hence, my comment about termites. We use boric acid in New England anytime we've got an ant or termite problem. I've used it on my own property. Works great. Non toxic. Definitely kills ants. We used to make our own water version and spray it with a pesticide sprayer on sills of post & beam buildings that had powder post beetle damage.

There were no liners in the boxes. wet dirt on cedar sealed with BIN. On the east coast we used to be able to easily buy C & better western red cedar with no knots. It's a face sawn product about 7/8" thick with this weird textured rough back side and a planed face. We often used it for corner boards etc. That was before preprimed became the norm. I have no idea if it was old growth or not. I wasn't counting the growth rings.

Using BIN on the buried section of a fence post was a.....joke.

I didn't use always or never in my comments.... You are the one who is always saying this or that will not work because of x, y or z.

I'm simply offering real world first hand examples of things that have worked or not worked for me. Take it as you like.

Matt Calnen,

Try going on Weather Spark.

I searched Lake Michigan Beach, Michigan for your location.
I searched Groton, Connecticut for mine.

I'm not seeing why you think your climate is anything exceptional. We get a lot of rain year round. Tons of hot humidity in the summer. Definitely a 4 seasons in a day kind of climate.