BH Davis, have you used an actual industrial tablesaw? There's no comparison.

Karl,

As I said in the last paragraph the large industrial saws are a different animal. Comparing them to the 10" cabinet saws is like comparing heavy iron CNC routers to medium duty, less expensive units that small to medium size shops are drawn towards. The two categories of machines fill different needs.

Will a large, heavy and well engineered industrial saw be nicer to run than a 10" cabinet saw of most any make? Likely so. But if the 10" cabinet saw will do the job well........and especially if it has the SawStop safety feature.........why pass that by just for the smoother performance of that larger, and likely more costly saw. One accident and there will be a lifetime of "I should have bought the SawStop."

BH Davis

"No" would've been an easier answer.

Well............yes, if no had been the answer.

BH Davis

Even after using some of the old saws like I said above, I would still buy a saw stop 100% of the time if given a choice b/w saws. All it takes is one accident. Not even an arguable point really.

We have had a SawStop since - can't remember the exact year. Excellent saw. If you are looking for a cabinet saw, get it. We've tripped the mechanism a couple of times, once because a new employee tried to cut metal laminate with it, the other because a new employee tried to cut their thumb off with it. Performed as advertised.

Aside from that, it has a great fence, durable switches, and and has stood up in my shop for at least 15 years with every day use by a wide range of workers.

Crusty old dudes always have a reason why the past was better. And a lot of them are missing digits, and sport nicknames like "Lefty" and "Stumpy". If you have employees, or ever work when you are tired and prone to making errors, you'll be glad you got a Saw Stop.

No experience with Sawstop. No employees either. The only thing I can add is that 3hp is inadequate in my opinion for a 12" saw. Five or more. More power is safer and less frustrating. If you have 3 phase then prices are better for used machines.

All the aforementioned are Fisher Price toys compared to the Altendorf with Hand Guard camera safety system. Bite the bullet and take the financial pain early in your woodworking career. Employers would pay as much on one insurance claim over the lifespan of the saw or increased premiums as a result of a claim.

I watched a video of the Altendorf, and I think it's certainly a more advanced technology than the Sawstop. However, I certainly wouldn't consider the Sawstop a toy and many small cabinet shops don't need to cut wet lumber, plastic, or metal. I didn't see a price for the Altendorf; how many times in a lifetime would a shop possibly have an incident with the Sawstop where the safety mechanism engaged and the blade and mechanism had to be replaced; at what cost? How much more does the Altendorf cost? Is there a need to cut anything other than dry lumber? Only with those cost and other factors known can we do a cost/benefit analysis.

If you have employees passing their hand so close to the blade that it needs constantly be dropped then you have a bigger problem that Altendorf vs. Sawstop.

Do you consider hand planes, chisels, etc. to be fischer price toys as well?

The OP asked about the quality of the saw. He did not ask about the efficacy of the stop feature.

How can the build quality of an Altendorf, Martin, Kolle, etc be compared that that of a Sawstop? That really is just silly.

What I'm curious about is why is this become such a religion? The sawstop promotors will fellate themselves endlessly, and overlook anything said against it. I've seen it time and time again on forums.

Why do those that promote it so heavily not demand the same tech on a jointer, planer, dovetailer, bandsaw, drillpress, lathe, or any of the other equipment in a wood/cabinetshop?
What about handheld power tools? Nailguns? Nailstop would be sweet. Been lots of times I've shot a nail into something only to have it rim out and go through my phalanges.
Chisels have to be one of the more dangerous tools in a wood shop as far as reportable injuries, I don't see much push for chiselstop.

This is a question I asked myself and in turn asked my guys at lunch one day. What is the most dangerous piece of equipment in the shop?
I don't remember their specific answers, but mine was the forklift. That's the one piece with the highest probability for severe injury. Some of the other stuff could kill you, but you'd really have to be trying. One good screw up with the forklift could be fatal.
I'd be curious what other people thought was the most dangerous piece in a shop as well.
The one I like the least when doing something sketchy is the jointer. I am not a fan of hand feeding shapers either.

Thank all for the insight. I agree totally that if I only need the power and versatility of a good quality 10" shop saw that the Sawstop would be a great choice. My biggest issue is blade height especially when @ 45 degrees. I have a Powermatic 66 10 inch and have had so many times where I can't get the height I need. I also plan on using this new saw with a feeder at times and the power of mine and I assume the Sawstop can bog at times. My earlier question is I am so used to a T type fence the Northfield #4 I am looking at has it's own style table mounted fence which i am not familiar with. Can I remove this fence and add my own Beissmeyer system? Or maybe I will find that the stock fence on the Northfield is very good. I know I need at least 12" possibly 14" if I want to have only one shop saw that can handle everything. To add to the earlier post there are 100 ways to get an injury in our trade and in my mind if you use safe practices that's all I can do. I chose this wonderful trade so I am comfortable with the risks but want versatile tooling to run my business.

You can put a T fence on a #4. Mine has a Biesemeyer on it.
If you are powerfeeding, the rack and pinion, pin indexed fence will serve you much better, as it is much more rigid. I don't know if it can be mounted left of the blade or not. I don't have my original fence, and I've never really paid attention to whether not there are holes for it.

My only complaint about a #4 is the right tilt. If you're power feeding things through, it's not a big deal, but I'm always squeamish having material trapped by the blade and the fence. Mine is setup almost solely as a dado saw, and doesn't get used much. 5hp on a 12" dado set is barely adequate if you're getting aggressive. You can bog it down with too high of a feed rate. I'm not going to be purchasing a new one, but if I were, I would get a 7.5hp.

If you can find a good used Rolling Top, that could be handy.

Used #4 saws are dirt cheap typically. They were bought by the government for schools, prisons, and gov't workshops. They are really well made no frills saws. Also the only USA made option still operating if that is important to you.

Tom, can you elaborate on how one would be disappointed with a SawStop compared to Altendorf, Martin, and the L'invincibile machines from SCM.

I'm not familiar with those other saws, and sure, you might be disappointed if they have additional capabilities. But, if you need a table saw for ripping and crosscutting lumber and plywood, and you don't have the need for a sliding table saw or any additional capabilities, how exactly would a well tuned SawStop, Powermatic, etc. disappoint?

I mean, if we're talking about the intended and expected capabilities of a North American style cabinet saw, and those are the operations that one needs to perform, do these saws not produce the desired results and quality expected?

I mean, the OP was asking about SawStop so it seems reasonable to assume his "top quality" criteria would be a quality comparison of North American style cabinet saws.

Hi Steven,

In terms of build weight and quality, Sawstop doesn't come close to the higher-end machines coming out of Germany and Italy. Heavier castings, more precise milling, overall design integration, it just doesn't compare.

My personal opinion is that a North American style table saw is a terrible tool for ripping lumber. Can you do it? Sure, but you can also tow a boat with a Corvette, but it's not a good use for the tool. My preference is to rip lumber (mostly 8/4 for me) on a band saw, then final/finished milling surfaces are coming off the shaper or thickness planer.

My issue with North American style cabinet saws is that the user is positioned directly in line with the danger path for offcuts and kickbacks, so it's a fundamentally flawed design in terms of ripping. Likewise, for crosscutting there's generally no good way to secure the work other than simply gripping the lumber with your fingers and hoping for the best.

Sliders, on the other hand, position the user to the side of the machine, so they're well clear of flying offcuts or kickbacks. Crosscuts are simple and safe when using clamps or Fritz & Franz blocks. If you really feel compelled to rip, you can do so in a controlled manner on the slider, or you can mount a power feeder for using the parallel fence.

So, circling back to the original request, Troy was asking about "top quality" machines, in which case I would not include Sawstop, which I personally categorize in the Prosumer/Hobbyist category of machine. Not taking anything away from Sawstop, but also important to acknowledge that there are several tiers of other machines which eclipse it, and it's important to understand where it lands in the broader category of "tablesaw".

In terms of horse power, I wouldn't want anything less than 7.5hp for a 12"+ blade. I have a 7.5hp on my Felder, and have bogged it down at times, on a future saw I'd opt for a 10hp motor, perhaps more if it's to be a dedicated ripping machine with a power feed.

If your looking for a machine to rip, you should be doing it on an SLR anyways

Original poster did not say what type of work he is doing. If your running sheet good for cabinets then you need a slider. Ripping wood for moldings, then a SLR.

The saw stop is a solid table saw and to say its a hobby grade...I dont agree.

Not every shop can go out and buy the top of line machines mentioned so to poo poo the saw stop is just giving bad advice.

If you need a very good "do all" saw, you can not go wrong with the saw stop but its not the machine to rip wood on all day or break down sheets with all the time.

I can appreciate everyone’s opinion or point-of-view. I don’t know about European countries, but professional cabinet, furniture, and woodworking shops come in all sizes in the U.S., from 1 man shows to large, publicly traded companies like Master Brand. So what should and should not be for one will be completely different for another.

The OP said he was looking for a used 12” shop saw to be his anchor in his shop and has used Powermatic for years, suggesting he relies heavily on the table saw for material processing, which makes perfect sense for a certain type of shop. If you can source surfaced and SL1E lumber there is no reason it can’t be further ripped and cross cut on a table saw, along with plywood. Or you could buy a sliding table saw and straight line rip saw, or a 4X8 or 5X10 CNC router, gang rip saw, etc., etc.

As far as the table saw’s basic design being flawed, I’ll have to agree to disagree on that one too. I find it interesting though, considering the basic design has been in use since the invention of a water wheel and circular saw blade so there is obviously a demand for machinery with flawed designs.

I might argue the automobile, with all it’s mandated safety features, is a flawed design, as it puts human operators directly in the path of other multi ton moving objects. I’d even guess if as many people operated table saws as they do autos there would be still be significantly more injuries and deaths while operating autos.

My personal opinion is that operating a table saw with nothing more than a riving knife is a safer activity than getting in my truck and driving in rush hour traffic in a large metropolitan area. Just my two cents, take it for what it’s worth.

I have heard cabinet saws referred to as "variety" saws.
Implied with that term would be plywood and panel ripping and crosscutting, and solid wood ripping and cross cutting, as well as specialty cuts.
The SLR is designed to rip hardwood as prep for a molder. Nothing beats them for what they do. Fewer and fewer shop hands have experience with them.

Panel saws excel at breaking down panels accurately and quickly, plus doing many of the variety saw things.

Size of the shop as well as product mix will determine the saws needed.

That Altendorf with hand guard is around 75K. Totally different conversation in regards to Sawstop.

If I were to only have one saw, I would just have a slider. It's the most versatile option.
It may not be the same ballpark for cost, but the $75k saw is going to be a lot cheaper in the long run and be more profitable. Plus the auctions are quite active at the moment. You could snatch one of those saws in good shape for $10-15k. Might get lucky and get one for next to nothing. I just got a used Martin T26 Duo built in 2000 for less than $4k. Needed a lot of cleaning and maybe $6k in parts, (which includes a new feeder). I got lucky, but the deals are out there.

I've got four cabinet style table saws set up for various tasks, a vertical panel saw, and an SLR.
I still wish we had a slider in the shop for a few things like compound mitres, or crosscutting hardwood drawer parts. It'd be handy to have. Just haven't found the right used one in my budget, and it's more of a convenience than a necessity at the moment.

They do eat up an acre of floorspace. That is a downside.

I agree with Karl - I have one saw and it is a slider. If I had the space I would have a SLR and a slider.
I guess the real question in this thread is what makes a saw good? For me it is adequate power (9hp) accurate and repeatable settings, the crosscut accuracy and mitre abilities of a slider, and a large table to support work.
Space requirement is a bit if a red herring. The size of the stock determines the floor space needed.

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