I have a magic molder for the shaper that nearly never gets used for no reason other than we dont invest in the plugs. Also have a W&H. Its a no brainer that the W&H would give you far more versatility but is of course much more of an investment especially if you go the smart way and fully loaded with variable speed W&H.

I would think the only way to run that without a fixture effectively on the TS with the magic molder would be as your drawing shows with the extra material on the sides that would then get ripped away after so your talking 3 operations with the magic molder. Would seem a major pain. You could most definitely setup a decent zero clearance fixture for the TS that would let you run them at finished width face down and given your feeder has a speed that works for your material it would surely work single pass.

Often that profile is cut as a separate piece and then attached over the plain, lower piece to form a built up molding. Running the molding is easier and you don't ruin as much stock if the molding blows out when cutting it. I haven't run much molding with a molding head on my TS but when I have using a Sears molding knife set I've had quite of bit of tear out unless the grain is very friendly. I also have a W&H molder and it always amazes me at how smooth the molding comes out even with grain I expect will tear out. I've never been able to run molding in a single pass on the Sears molding head, though I don't have a power feeder on it, but have no trouble doing that with the W&H. Given the choice, I would go with the W&H.

John

I have one of those old Craftsman heads that I have threatened to throw away a million times but I keep it only for single, double, and triple, beading operations that rarely pop up.

The bonus of the magic moulder is the plugs are carbide so it would most certainly do a better job.

A zero clearance fixture built for the table saw once would run that profile all day long and I would assume pretty cleanly if it were well built.

It all boils down to the math.

Why the question about 1 or 2 passes? Is 2 passes a deal breaker? 2 passes on a W&H can chew a groove in the feed rollers if you aren't extremely careful. Especially on a single contact point like that profile.

I have run a 1/32" skim pass on a W&H tons of times with no issue on the rollers. The bigger issue with that profile to me is holding and snipe.

I dont have VS so its not uncommon to use the LeoG method of blocking the outbound side of the head and then running a skim/spring pass. The hard part with profiles like that is you have very little material contacting the feed rolls but soft urethane rollers will still push anything through especially with heavy spring pressure.

I have a W&H and a magic molder. If you have a table saw with a feeder, that's what I'd use. It's quicker to set up than the W&H, and a 3 or 4 wheel feeder will give you better hold down with less snipe.

The LeoG method. I'm famous LOL.

That's a one pass on the W&H, it's a pretty small molding. If you have good in and out support for the molding the snipe is minimal to non existent.

I have the original rollers on my machine (black) and they are still in pretty good condition. The only moldings I don't do second passes on are very asymmetrical moldings where the 2nd pass might tip the molding as it goes back through the machine.

We run this profile on the WH with 2 passes. I had the shop that ground the knives put a tapered relief on the bottom of the profile so we can run the full 4.5" piece through. This eliminates any issue of tipping under the rollers

Thanks for the comments everyone, this has been very helpful. I replied yesterday but don't see my reply here so maybe I never hit the "post message" button.

The reason I asked about 1 or 2 passes is simply to help understand which of the two options we have will be the most reasonably quick. We believe in SMED as much as practicable. Doing 2 passes on the molder obviously takes about twice as long, and if one of these methods can do in only 1 pass, reliably, predictably, then that helps make the decision.

It's not so much a deal-breaker, just a helpful bit of information to consider.

One idea I haven't herd yet is how about a shaper? In over 30 years of cabinetmaking I have always made all my own moulding. I have made reproductions of vintage 1800's profiles to match what's in historic homes, up to 6" custom crown, casing and even the same profile shown here, etc. I love making moulding and I think you will find a shaper very user friendly and versatile.I admit I have only seen a W&H used once and was not that impressed with it. Seemed to feed very slow compared to the shaper outfitted with a good feeder. I also think you will find the shaper can more simply do a variety of functions easier than these other machines. I like to us lockmiters on all my casework when I have a faceframe meeting a frame and panel end. It's easy to do! I can't speak for cost comparison of a W&H to a shaper but I think it's worth looking into. Even if your not a cabinet shop it could do a lot more for you when you start applying it. You will have some investment in cutterheads but with the insert design concept or corrigated back heads you can create any profile you want to.

Problem with a shaper is it is thickness sensitive because it is top referenced. A molder is bottom referenced and will produce a constant thickness with whatever thickness you feed it.

True enough Leo but with carefull setup It's easily done. I have never had problems cutting a field miter from 2 different pieces. This may not be a good choice for these guys but worth considering.

The mail limitation of the W&H is the 2HP motor that drives it. For the money you spend to get the machine it is a real work horse. If you are trying to do production moldings on it you've bought the wrong machine and you need a real molding machine.

But for the shop that needs to make short runs of moldings, or make reproductions of moldings, or need moldings right now the W&H is a great machine.

If I have a run more than 200LF I will get it done by someone with a "real" molding machine. But usually it's is a kitchens worth or some other single room which requires 6 or 7 16' sticks. And it's worth it to keep it in house because you know the time schedule.

Shapers are nice and they have their uses. I have a router bit that I use to make this same baseboard profile once in a while, so I know it can be done.

Shapers are just a big heavy footprint. Even the W&H on a stand is far smaller and more portable, so that's part of what drives me toward it.

I have a woodmaster molder and 2 of the bigger molders one 4 head and one 5 head, one big difference between the lightweight profile machines and big molders or industrial shapers is weight. That equates to much less vibration from the machine that then translates to the finish of your piece. Way less sanding when you use a heavier machine.

I'm not sure what product or service you provide but I'm thinking that there may be 100 ways a decent shaper will benefit what you do. It would make short work of the job plus be a huge asset for other work.

I would agree with this statement. A shaper would be much more beneficial to a shop than a molder (of any sort) is as long as you aren't making lots of moldings.

Large molding cutters for a shaper are not as easy to run as the same on a molder.

Long ago I started making reproduction moldings on a decent shaper, 4 wheel feed, lock edge heads and steel. I ground my own knives on a bench grinder. Much faster than a W&H. Shapers are extremely versatile. If you should decide to get one, get an industrial level machine NOT something like a PM27. Used ones come up fairly often. I've got a Weinig molder and profile grinder but there are times when we will run the molder heads on one of the shapers, especially on the tilt head shaper. Our molder only has 20hp on the top head, (compare that to 2hp on the W&H!) I would get more or a 2nd top if I was to do it again. 5hp on a medium duty shaper works well. 7 1/2 or 10 for serious work.

I’m with Larry, it’s hard to beat a good shaper for short runs of moulding. We have a S4S- moulder, a W&H and some good tilting shapers. After trying the W&H on some short moulding runs I prefer the shaper just because it’s fast to set and can be done in one pass. A feeder like the DC 40 is a game changer for this because of the ease of going vertical to the fence.

The W&H however, is good for low volume curve work. It makes a decent cut for a lightweight machine.

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We do quite a lot of curved work. Often 3 point curved casing, elliptical or curves with a straight section. Very rarely will the curve be some form of S shape. Those are usually done because some decorator wanted them for wall application. For most we can adjust our steel form to the desired shape but some require male & female particle board forms, more expensive. Our curved molding machine does not require any templating it just copies what ever you feed it. Curved base, crown & classical column bases are almost always run on a shaper. Some stuff can be run on the CNC router but the time to program and the run time makes it expensive.
I've never used a W&H so don't know if they can do most of the above items. They do seem really slow.

Elliptical with a straight section on the W&H

Hi Joe
Great pictures of your shop and a real nice set up. Just curious how many set ups it took to to run what appears to be a sill thru your shaper. It seems to me it would be three seperate steps. One for the nosing one for the angle or chamfer and one for the deep rebate in the picture. I usually send profiles with multiple profiles out to a guy with a 5 head machine. So just wanted to know how many steps and how long to set up.
Thanks

It appears that all of Joe's machines are Martins serious coin in that setup

Very nice set of equipment!

Bill,
It was 3 setups for that. Cannot remember now what it was, I think a interior stool of some sort. First pass was through the planer with a taper jig,(see picture) could have also been done on the tilting shaper, then the bull nose on the shaper and last the rebate on the shaper using spreaders on the Aigner fence for support. It was only the pieces you see on the cart so a very short run. A few hundred feet of this would justify a five head moulder setup but not a small quantity. We have a reputation locally for doing short runs of usually historic moulding. I am semiretired now, working by myself and only part time so this is quick in and out work. No more big jobs.

Larry, the W&H is pretty slow and fussy to set compared to my shapers but a real asset for some profiles. I found out you can have corrugated knives made for these and will do that in the future for some jobs. I would like to have a US concepts moulder for curves but at this stage the Hussy will have to do.

Pat, I collect Martins, 8 in the shop right now with most approaching 20 years old plus a couple vintage ones. My wife questions my semiretirement...

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