We recently purchased a HD3 insert tooling body and cutters. First time using them. We were sold from all the positive comments here. We are having a problem though. Our stile and rail joints are loose. Approx. .009 difference between the tongue and the grove. We had new inserts sent out and had the same problem. Looked at the shapers. Runout is less than .002. We mounted dial indicator on the spindle and measured the table. .006 out from the highest point to the lowest. Shimmed the spindle but did not help. Any ideas as to why the sloppy fit? We are using Weaver shapers fwiw. Thanks

Mount the inserts and digital mic the high spots, I found on some Byrd tool door bodies that I had to adjust them to get the fit better. We had 3 sets of heads and one type that I had to shift slightly to get a tight fit.

Dustin, what do you mean by adjust them for a better fit? On the stile and rail cutters, if I shift the tenon it will make the tenon thinner and if I shift the mortise or slot it will make it wider. Not sure I am understanding what you are saying.

Its tricky to get these adjusted if they don't fit right. I think I spent a few days and lots of wood to tighten this up. Little brass shims, paper and a table mounted mic to measure from the top to find the offset insert.

What's the run out of the spindle?
Is it properly trammed to the table?

Cutters are usually made as perfect mirrors of a profile. If machined perfectly, they won't go together. The tool makers rely on some degree of inaccuracy on our part to get enough slop to create room for glue and assembly.

Karl,
The runout on the spindles is .0012 on one and .0023 on the other. The tables are .0001 and .0003 square to the spindle. The measurement of the tongue and groove cutters are within .003 - .0049 difference between each other. After cutting the joints they are so loose that they zero resistance going together and falling out. Place one on the other and try to turn them upside down and they fall apart like a ball bearing rolling on glass. We will be sending the tables out Monday to another machine shop to get a second opinion. Don't know what to do next. Could it be vibration from Weaver shapers not being heavy enough cut clean?

Weaver.

There's your answer. They were never meant to handle the big insert heads.

.003 to .0049 gap difference on the tongue and groove is the issue. There is a cutter either offset ground or ground improperly. Mic out each tip on that area both in width, depth and offset from edge. You'll find one isn't right compared to the others. Like I mentioned above, its not easy to nail down exactly whats the cause here.
Does a shop near you have an optical comparator? Usually a high end millwork shop or machine shop. They can check the offsets and dimensions on a scope within a few minutes. Wish I had one!

Karl, I respect what you say. You always have good insight. I don't understand how a stack of Freeborn stile and rail cutters works fine and is a lot heavier and larger than the HD3 head. Seems like the lighter set would run smoother.
Dustin, I took the head and cutters in to a local shop that makes cnc tooling and insert tooling. They brought me to the back and used a comparator to check the cutters. They stated that the cutters were fine and should have a tight fit. I had them make another set just to satisfy my mind. They produced the same slop that original cutters did. This is a large company and were not the manufacture of the head. They did advise that the HD3 head was a good quality set. I am not a machinist but am leaning towards the machine vibration. Maybe I can add some sandbag to the base of the machine.....
Thanks y'all

If you were running bigger, heavier cutters before, then I don't know what to say.

Could be a tramming issue.

Could be some weird harmonic building up with that head. A change in rpm might be the answer, but tough if you're running at an optimal chip load, and slowing down a feeder sucks.

I have two powermatic shapers that do nothing but cope. Sloppy fit, just on the verge of being problematic. I like my R&S joints so if you put in a 6-8" rail on, you can flip it over and it'll stay. That's likely too tight, but I can't get that out of those powermatics. If I drop the head into one of my better shapers with no adjustment, I'll get that fitment and then some. I don't have awesome shapers either. Mostly SAC and SCM.

Thomas- I wood like to switch over to insert heads here shortly. The brazed Freeborns just aren’t cutting the mustard anymore, but like Karl I have SCM shapers. I was just wondering, since you already went to a custom shop nearby and had them make new inserts, rather than making exact mirror images of one another could they fudge either the tongue or groove by .005” or so? In essence taking the place of shims in a stacked set. I don’t know if this is possible but I might be in the same situation when I switch over. Shapers and tolerances are good but maybe not good enough. Just a thought

Can you see resin deposit on each insert indicating where each insert is cutting? It is possible that one insert is cutting the upper portion and the other cutting the lower so the inserts are shifted vertically with respect to each other. You would see tell tale areas of the profile left clean where it is not cutting.

My quess is it is the cutters, if the Freeborn cutters were good, that tells me your shaper and spindle are not the problem. I would send them back, that stuff is not cheap so one would expect good quality. The readings you mentioned are to much of a variance..

Jeremy, that sounds logical and will probably be my next step if I can't chase this problem down. I believe I would rather find the problem and fix it rather than "fudge" the grind on the knives. That would probably work....but then I would always wonder what the real problem was.
Tom, I had not thought about that. I will run them again and closely inspect the amount of resin build up on each knife.
Scott, that sounds logical except with the stack Freeborn cutters (or any other stack brand) I can adjust my tenon or sticking groove by adding or subtracting shims. This would account for a tight fit even with a slightly worn bed or spindle alignment.
After the 1st I will go back to Misenhimer's and have both sets of knives put on the comparator.
It might be time for a good door machine.... Thanks all for your responses.

Hi Thomas: I work for H3D Tool Corp. I would be glad to discuss issues you are having and see if we can figure out what is going on. Sounds like you are in Tenn. since you mentioned Misenheimer. I manage a sales territory which covers Tenn. You can reach me on my cell @
828-302-4902

Is this a one piece carbide insert where you can't shim between the cutters? A 6 piece set from Freeborn can easily be shimmed to get the fit you want. I'd guess your Weaver shapers aren't precision or rigid enough to run that kind of tooling. Sandbags on the floor isn't going to help.

We run Byrd insert heads and have found thru the years that as precise as they fit into the head , they can be of just a bit. When I replace knives, I place them in the head then run some samples Usually the fit is loose I pull the heads off and get under good light and look at how they relate to the body Byrd inserts flush up to the top of the body so you can feel or even see if one knife is in a different position in the head Ususally loosening the gibs slightly and retightening and double checking the insert position to body helps tighten the fit Im talking very small adjustments here Also make sure you are running bodys as low on shaper shaft as possible, run out is least at the lowest point Also If you are using bushings make sure the bottom of the bushings are in good shape( perpendicular to shaft.) If bushing is not perfect, when tightened down you have run out even if shaft is perfect. Ive found this to be a big issue I have four Weaver shapers for thirty plus years two with 1 1/4" shafts two with 3/4" shafts so all knives are 1/1/4" and use bushings to run on the smaller shafts. Have never had problem with major runout but have found more problems with fitting the knives in the head and crappy bushings that arent precise

Bruce, yes these are insert tooling cutters. Each head has three cutters (all the same cut) I don't have any problem with the stack cutters as they can be shimmed.
Keith, I will order some new spacers today. We have three wavers all 1.25 inch shafts. Built in 1996. Weaver wants close to $1800 for one new spindle and about $400 to rebuild. We will order spacers before spending that much money. In the mean time we are running this job with Freeborn stack cutters. Really want to start using the insert tooling though.
Thank you all for the responses. Woodweb has been a great resource for wisdom and support for many years.