Good day,
I currently assemble face frames with pocket holes. It works pretty well but, I don't love it. I have been considering how well a Hoffman dovetail router would work. I realise I would need to set up a fence with flip stops to machine both "stile and rail" of each joint. Once that is done (it seems) assembly would be quick and accurate.

Any insight is welcome,
Geoff

What do you not like about pocket screws? What equipment are you using to create the pocket? What are you using for assembly?

If I were to do face frames any other way, I'd likely go back to mortise and tennon. But that's a ton of screwing around with little gain in my opinion.

I agree with Karl we have multiple Hoffman machines and would not consider using them for face frames. Get a decent clamp. Castle makes one that is not terribly expensive and works well.

Mortise and tenon was the first choice for high end back in the day, then dowels came into favor with some really simple double drill machines made it super efficient. Then frameless took over and no one had to fuss with the whole thing. Are your customers insisting on face frames?

Just curious

Is the concensus that framed cabinets are better even even with full overlay doors?

I don't think there's a consensus on anything in that department.

Euro guys scoff at frames.
Face frame guys roll their eyes at frameless. Tough to build a traditional looking inset cabinet in frameless though

I just don't have what I feel is a good methodology to build frameless.

It is interesting on what people want and what the shops prefer to do.

I have been building just about full overlay my whole life as I started with a shop that did all commercial and that was what I knew. They seem so simple to build, where as if I do a job with face frame, it’s like oh my, how do I build the face frames, what size should the face frames be, how do I get a perfect reveal around the whole door/drawer front and face frame? Oh no , major brain cramp, what kind of hardware do I need and how do I install it?

Karl has a system in place and he loves doing face frame, I on the other hand am not a fan.

I know that if I wanted to read about the pros and cons of face frame vs framless/euro/32. I could go to the Knowledge Base page and read until I was, "blue in the face" or "the cows come home."

It is interesting on what people want and what the shops prefer to do.

I have been building just about full overlay my whole life as I started with a shop that did all commercial and that was what I knew. They seem so simple to build, where as if I do a job with face frame, it’s like oh my, how do I build the face frames, what size should the face frames be, how do I get a perfect reveal around the whole door/drawer front and face frame? Oh no , major brain cramp, what kind of hardware do I need and how do I install it?

Karl has a system in place and he loves doing face frame, I on the other hand am not a fan.

Frameless is better if you actually want to make money.

How did this turn into ANOTHER argument about face frame vs frame less?

It was NOT my question.

It was mea culpa, some one asked me to bid an installation of some cabinets that had face frames with full overlay doors, so they were european looking on the outside.

The reason I usually hear is that they stay square and are stronger with the face frames.

BTW as one who has had a Hoffman I would not recommend it for faceframes.

Twice as much milling

If you have to index off the ends for any reason it doubles any error in the dovetail cut alignment

The Hoffman machine that I had was poorly designed for the stops

The keys are not cheap

Somebody on the woodweb recommended switching to quick screws for better results

Geoff,

Could be my fault as well for getting off topic, I really have no comment on which is better or more work or more costly, just that I always did frameless.

Getting back on topic a company in my area went bankrupt a few years ago and they did exactly what Rich said , they used dowels, made a nice table out of aluminum and mounted a Blum machine on the horizontal, they had a foot pedal and a phenolic fence. The face frames were manufactured with 2 dowels per joint. It worked supper slick and was quite fast:

When I do the few that I end up doing, I use pocket screw.. I have also done a few with a festool domino, they turned out beautiful and were strong, definitely not an efficient system in my mind though..

Thank you for the "on topic" responses. People sharing their experience is what make this website so great.
Geoff

Geoff,
What is it that you "don't love" about ff screw? We build both ff and framless. What ever the customer wants. Pocket hole machines are not too expensive and work quite well. Alignment can be a problem sometimes as a joint might shift and leave one face proud of another. (widebelt sander fixes this real fast) Of all the methods available to assemble face frames, the pocket hole is the fastest. If you use dowel and have a good setup you don't have to worry about the minor slippage (caused by the angle of the pocket hole) when joining a rail to a stile. Once we have built all the face frames they go through the wide belt sander alleviating any alignment problems.
For us FF vs Frameless is left up to the customer. Hope this helps.

I use a bench top Kreg pocket hole machine, pneumatic.

Things I don't like are; you can only get one srcew in most face frame parts any they can rotate on the screw if you are not careful, if you have a place where two horizontal parts meet a narrow vertical part the screws can hit each other, I have hit the screws with a saw when triming the scribe rail when walls are far out of plumb.

My original thought was that using a Hoffman dovetail router would solve these issues.

I use Castle machines for making pockets. I set the depth so an 1-1/2" face frame screw penetrates 11/16" to the piece being attached. Castle really does have the best angle, and the pilot hole is beneficial over the step bit the kreg I assume still uses. I have one setup in the face frame area for doing frames using their solid carbide serrated tool. We do not run engineered material on that one. The other one is near the benches and I use a 2 flute tool, as we'll use that in any material necessary.

I like the Deerborn fine thread screws for most materials, but keep some of the kreg brand course screws on hand for softer material like alder.

Assembly, I think the castle brand tables are too squishy. I've got a Unique brand 5x12 assembly table that I'm a fan of. Good angle, and it's super stiff. The Ritter table is good too, but it's angle is much flatter, and stuff up high is a bit of a reach. I'm 6'2" and have a decent wingspan.

I wouldn't bother with a used Castle. New ones aren't that much more, and the old ones you will struggle to find parts for the discontinued routers they have.

Yes on castle pocket machine.inch and half face frame two screws.why can u only get one screw in?l bought a Hoffman machine at auction cheap thinking I could put it to so use but never have found that go need.so it sits in the corner of shop waiting.those that have one what are u doing with it?