Message Thread:
switching to solid model
4/8/14
I have two draftsman. One of them draws in Solidworks, the other draws in AutoCAD 2012. Both draw in 3D.
Their job is to create accurate pretty pictures. They are not asked to produce cutlists or computer code from their drawings. That process happens separately. The single most important thing that they need to accomplish is to get through the drawing review process as fast as possible so that we have an approved set of drawings from which to work.
My AutoCAD draftsman is my first, and he has 15 years of drawing my cabinets, the last 4 of which have been in 3D. The Solidworks guy is a new addition in the last 9 months.
As the Solidworks guy has come up to speed and built up his library, it is becoming evident that he is gaining ground with his speed. Most notably, when I ask him to make a correction, say adding 3" to a wall and all of its components, the process from the instructions leaving my mouth to having updated drawings on my desktop takes under 5 minutes. The same process in AutoCAD takes 30 minutes.
We are thinking of just moving my AutoCAD guy into Solidworks, but there's one element to this I want to get some feedback on from you guys. I already own 2 seats of TopSolid Design and 1 seat of TopSolid Cam which have never been utilized. The Solidworks guy was trained on it for 2 weeks, but thinks the architecture is backwards and doesn't like it. The AutoCAD guy has no such preconceived ideas.
Does any of this resonate with any of you? Does anyone have any feedback relating to any aspect of this? I realize its rare to find others who use either of those two products, and rarer still to find anyone who has used both, or all 3, that can offer comparisons. But if you're out there I'd like to hear from you.
Derek
4/8/14 #3: switching to solid model ...
Hi Derek,
I can't comment on Top Solid I have heard it is a very powerful solution however if you are already getting half your jobs detailed in Solidworks you may want to consider adding Pathfinder3D. Pathfinder is a plug in for Solidworks that will allow you to extract all the part information from your solid model in the form of layered DXF files which can easily be batch processed by your CAM package.
Pathfinder is a very intuitive plug in so one of your draftsmen would have a minimal learning curve & the other will have to change his approach in either situation.
Here is a link to the website.
Good Luck!
Richard
Pathfinder
4/8/14 #4: switching to solid model ...
Richard,
My Solidworks guy has seen and used Pathfinder and was very impressed. We're keeping that idea in our back pocket if or when I choose to move beyond the pretty pictures.
Derek
4/8/14 #5: switching to solid model ...
Yes Pathfinder will definitely move you past the pretty pictures stage! What CAM system do you currently use?
Richard
4/9/14 #6: switching to solid model ...
Previously, we did our layout/shop drawings with Autocad, but now use Topsolid. We have a reputation for providing very detailed, complete shop drawings...architects, designers, contractors always complement us on our shop drawing submittals. Topsolid has not only helped us maintain the quality of our drawings, but improved them in many ways. I will occasionally jump into Autocad just to throw up some lines to help me work through some thoughts to figure something out (sometimes easier & faster for me 2d vs. 3), then model it in Topsolid.
So, is there a reason why you haven't utilized Topsolid?
4/13/14 #7: switching to solid model ...
Richard asked what CAM system we use and Mark asked why we don't use our Topsolid.
I only do boxes on our router, no complex shapes, solid wood, or carving. For the boxes, we use CabinetVision and Cadcode.
We never implemented TopSolid because I became convinced that creating the 3D submittal drawings was going to be faster with Solidworks, both because my new hire was already familiar with solidworks and because he convinced me after a week of training on TopSolid that he felt even after he would have become proficient at TopSolid, Solidworks would still be faster to the pretty pictures stage because of the way the program works.
I dropped a lot of coin on Topsolid, you can bet that I didn't make the decision to shelve it without a lot of thought.
Derek
4/13/14 #8: switching to solid model ...
Derek,
I can understand if your new hire of the Solidwoks guy, was to keep you on the path of Solidworks. On the other hand, to have him decide your direction, especially only after one week of training, is not giving Topsolid fair shake.
4/14/14 #9: switching to solid model ...
FWIW
I have not used SW since 2007
The things that drove me to Auto Cad 3d:
Cut and paste was a pain because of relations in the original model
Stretching of shrinking created broken parametric relations and the screen would "fill with red" that you would then have to hunt down and fix
The above made me use the bottom up method which was more stable because of fewer top down relations.
Getting parts out of SW was very time consuming.
Because of the parametrics the computer would slow way down.
The library features only worked about half of the time making using them ineffective
Since you are not using the drawings for parts you might consider going to Sketch Up for pictures?
4/14/14 #10: switching to solid model ...
Pat I think you maybe missing the point here. The original poster has already hired a new draftsman who uses Solidworks & finds he is getting revisions back to him faster than his original draftsman. Clearly he has already faced the challenges with parametrics and has learnt how to overcome them.
I do agree with you about the challenges of getting files out of Solidworks but this is where Pathfinder comes in as it enables an automated extraction of layered DXF files.
The question that he needs answered is if Top Solid can do a better job of getting through the drafting process. As I mentioned I cannot comment on this as I have no prior experience.
Regards
Richard
4/14/14 #11: switching to solid model ...
When our TopSolid trainer was here, he commented that my current Solidworks operator was one of the sharpest students he'd ever trained. We all in this office understand the power of Topsolid, its why I splurged on it in the first place. But the integrated CAD/CAM and the idea that TopSolid would somehow replace Cabinetvision to produce our boxes never materialized. To my knowledge, no solid modeler has gone to the trouble of producing an add-on parametric cabinet box module that can compete with the amount of work that CabinetVision has done. Until that happens, solid modelers are valuable to me only in the kick-ass pictures that they can create. And Solidworks is faster at that than Topsolid.
There once was a shortlived product called Kabnx. It was a solid modeler based on the NX platform, and the developers had the foresight to create "configurators", such as "cabinet configurator" and "countertop configurator", etc. In theory, this would have saved us a lot of programming time. If Topsolid were to do this, with their integrated CAM it would be a slam dunk. But they have not done this, so in the absence of that I still program my boxes with CabinetVision, using the pretty 3D pictures from Solidworks as my guide.
Today's market has shifted. My designer's hand drawings are no longer adequate to present to clients. They want 3D renderings that include perfect representations of their appliances, plumbing fixtures, lighting, tile, pull hardware, seating, etc. In 2008, we would have simply refused. In 2014, this has become a point of contention, and we are having to bow to the pressure. Fortunately, it is also a revenue stream because very few if any designers and architects are willing or able to produce these drawings either. We just got asked this morning to produce drawings for 6 more whole house packages where the combined cabinet packages will exceed $1,000,000. We will be paid approximately $12,000 for this design work, but more importantly we will be in the drivers seat to land these jobs, where in 2008 we would have been just 1 of 3 or 4 qualified shops simply offering bids. I expect by the end of the year I'll need at least another CAD jockey to meet demand, partly because the manufacturing volume is there, but also partly because our design work has become a product in and of itself.
Derek
4/14/14 #12: switching to solid model ...
Richard
"Clearly he has already faced the challenges with parametrics and has learnt how to overcome them."
I used SW for 10 years, what I mentioned were show stoppers for me. I would recommend to Derek not to assume anything and force SW to demonstrate exactly what he does so as to avoid another expensive assumption.
That being said the last version I looked at was the 2002 version. Also you have an agenda that may or may not be useful to Derek.
4/15/14 #13: switching to solid model ...
Topsolid does not come with a library of products. For me, the beauty of Topsolid is being able to create the library yourself and set things up however you want. I never liked taking a product someone else created, and figuring out what they did, and having to "tweak it" to do what I want. My best analogy would be how much easier it is to install your own work vs. a job someone else built.
I really love Topsolid and hate to see you not use it. Give it a little more thought before you do that...
4/15/14 #14: switching to solid model ...
Derek,
I'm curious, could you post few examples of the "accurate pretty pictures" you were talking about.
Thanks
4/16/14 #15: switching to solid model ...
Mark,
If your remarks about Librarys is directed to my remarks about the lack of configurators, we're talking about two different things. I mentioned the speed of Cabinetvision for building boxes. I don't draw anything with Cabinetvision, I use a feature called order entry which allows me to process one box at a time. The speed has nothing to do with a library item, it has to do with the functionality that is combination of their own programming and the wizard that is used to set up your construction standards. Building a one-off cabinet from scratch is so fast I've never bothered to create a single library item in Cabinetvision, I start from a blank box every single time. I've built tens of thousands of cabinets this way. Knowing what I know about TopSolid, or any solid modeler for that matter, I would not want to go through the steps of building a cabinet without the use of some kind of pre-programmed standards. Topsolid has this ability, if I recall I think they were called user defined attributes. But I was hoping that since Topsolid markets the Wood version, they would have created something like this by now. I'm still waiting for someone to use a real solid modeling engine for a cabinetmaking program, but so far it hasn't happened. Probably the closet thing is Mozaik, which is written on top of Sketchup.
Robert, you asked for an example of our pretty pictures so I attached a few of the jobs we're currently working on. The first two are drawn in AutoCAD, and the last one is drawn in Solidworks. The AutoCAD drawings are actually a little bit sharper, but the speed of revising the drawings is being won by Solidworks.
Click the link below to download the file included with this post.
SPARWASSER_ISLAND_02_28_2014.PDF
Click the link below to download the file included with this post.
THUROGOOD_001_KITCHEN_02_19_2014.PDF
Click the link below to download the file included with this post.
GUY_102___KITCHEN_MAIN_REV_B.PDF
4/16/14 #16: switching to solid model ...
Derek,
At one time I worked for a shop that did something similar. Their layout/engineering dept. consisted of Autocad guys and Cabnetware people. Autocad guy goes out measures the job and creates the shop drawings, then hands it over to the Cabnetware person to cutlist it. Yes, it seemed to work for them, but never really made sense to me...two people, two software programs, two different skills. By the time the Autocad guy develops the shop drawings that job is in his head, so why take the time to do a handover meeting with the Cabnetware person, to cutlist it. At times mistakes were made because information didn't get past on from one guy to the other. Topsolid develops our shop drawing submittals and cutlisting all in one program.
I wish you luck on whatever direction you decide Derek. I contributed to this posting because Topsolid has been of great value to us, and hated to see you make the purchase, and not take advantage of it.
4/17/14 #17: switching to solid model ...
Mark,
You've won me over. We're going to have one of my guys peel off and re-familiarize themselves with TopSolid, see if we can't recover that investment.
Derek
4/17/14 #18: switching to solid model ...
It's worth a second look...I hope it works out.
I sunk a pretty penny into Microvellum, so I know the feeling. Topsolid has been the silver lining to that fiasco...never looked back since.
4/17/14 #19: switching to solid model ...
Probably a good decision certainly will avoid any further financial investment. Just time and any route you went would have involved a learning curve. I think it will be a great advantage to go directly from your models to CAM eliminating the extra step of CV.
Please post an update I have been curious about Top solid for sometime but I don't see to many posts about it.
Enjoy!
Richard
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