Total Finishing Supplies

Professional Finishing

You are not logged in. [ Login ] Why log in
(NOTE: Login is not required to post)

Wagner Wildcat/ Puma

11/8/20       
Y.Heller Member

Hey guys,

Looking to update my current spray pump and was looking for feedback on either of these pumps from any shops that might be using them.

The place I apprenticed at and got into finishing, we used Wagner pumps (I forget the models). They always ran great and never had issues for the 7 years I was there.

I’ve been out on my own for 5 years and had bought a Wagner coloratecni. It’s what I could afford starting out and I’m pretty sure it’s somewhere around 25 years old at this point. It refuses to die. I’m impressed with that.

It had been rebuilt once by the previous owner and and I was looking at the costs to rebuild it + parts availability and was up in the $1000 range.

it still makes sense to me to rebuild it at some point because it’s been a great sprayer for me and will become my dedicated clear finish gun. But for pigmented finishes I would like to update with a new system. I just went through hell with a dark green that was sensitive as hell and showed me all the flaws. Stuff I’ve never had to worry about with whites which is practically all I spray.

I was looking at the Wagner Wildcat and the Puma. Really only going to be running 1 gun on this thing as I’m the only one spraying finish (2man shop). Shooting MLC conversion varnish on the regular, Kemvar plus time to time, but have been looking to go to 2k poly.

I was reading articles recommending getting a pump that is beyond what you think you need now for growth (I don’t foresee that anytime soon), but more importantly for parts wear. The idea being if the pump exceeds your needs it cycles less/less wear on the parts. it seems to me the Wildcat would fit the bill. It’s an 18:1. The next step up is the Puma which is a 28:1.

$3400 vs $3800 between the two. Not enough of a difference to me not to get the puma. I’m just wondering if I really need to go to the Puma at all using the finishes I use or if the Wildcat is already more than enough for my needs.

Would love to hear more on the icebreaker thing.

I’m also wondering... with a modern system, is there an add on part or maybe it’s built in these days... essentially something that keeps constant spray pressure at the gun while the pump cycles so that there is no pulse in the finish?

My old coloratecni pulses at the gun and I typically time my spray so that I’m clearing off of the component when it pulses. This becomes a pain when spraying large doors/ dark colors. If I inspect the part closely, I can see a ghost pattern in the finish of where those pulses are. I typically box coat a large panel like this just to be sure I don’t have any starved areas, but in the right light/angle I can see those areas as the finish cures. At least I could in this dark green I just sprayed and I was not pleased with sending the job out, but I couldn’t seem to alleviate that. In the end it wasn’t noticeable When the doors were hung, but I want that issue gone from my stress plate.

11/8/20       #2: Wagner Wildcat/ Puma ...
Leo G Member

I run a Kremlin 10:14, it's a 10:1 ratio pump. Probably not as strong as what you've been running. What you are seeing with your pulse in the spray is usually called a "wink". It depends on how fast your pump cycle can recover. It is also dependent on the diameter and length of the hose you run to the gun. The longer and bigger the diameter the hose the better it can soften the wink. Also the quicker your pump recovers and the size of the tip you are running. A small tip orifice size will result in less winking. A large tip will deplete the "spare" pressure held up in the hose.

I don't know much about the Wagner pumps. The Kremlin and Cat pumps are what I'm more familiar with. The Cat pumps are less expensive to repair than the Kremlin's.

11/9/20       #3: Wagner Wildcat/ Puma ...
Shane Welch

pump wink can also be fixed with a fluid pressure regulator so it provides consistent outfeed pressure... but in older larger pump the wink is most likely from the lower and upper ball seat wear as well as the balls themselves..... best way to tell is put the pump under pressure and if the rod is visible watch it travel downward while under pressure without using the gun.... let it sit unused and a pump with balls not seating will loose bottom out on it's own if the lower balls doesnt seat correctly..... same for the upper ball if it travels by itself on the up stroke..
With that sort of budget.. over 3K I would definitely buy a kremlin.... yes.. parts are expensive but the longevity is greater than a CAT, Graco, or Binks.... Technically CAT is a Wagner product now.. I've used them all for years and out of all of them Kremlin seems to shine in quality... I have well over 30 pumps of various sizes running at any given time throughout the week during production hours and out of those 98% of them are kremlins....

11/10/20       #4: Wagner Wildcat/ Puma ...
Y.Heller Member

Thanks for the responses Leo and Shane.

Leo I’ve been spraying with a 512 tip so likely what you’re saying with depleting As well as Shane’s points.

The hose is one of those blue Graco hoses from HD. Threw a new hose on in a pinch as that was all that was available locally. Surprisingly hard to find local suppliers that can mate the fittings onto the hoses and it was one of those deals where it went down during a job and I needed a quick solution.

Pretty sure it’s a 25’ which is far more than I really like and a lot more finish just sitting in the line. A 15’ is plenty for my booth.

In terms of cycling I’ll try to time it today somehow when I’m spraying some clawlock II. I mean... to me it sounds fast as heck. There’s no pause or lag in the down stroke/return.

Shane would you say the wagner pumps are better quality in parts than CAT? (Never used one myself). Likewise would you say the Kremlin is better quality than the Wagner? I saw the other brands listed but not Wagner brand. I’m looking for the best that I can afford in that up to 4K range. I know somewhat what I can expect in the durability/dependability with the Wagner as it’s all I’ve used for 12 years. Kremlin i have zero experience with. Never used one, but I’ll take a deeper look Into their gear. I know a lot of guys who are shooting on kremlins and I’ve always heard they were good. However I do hear mixed responses on the 10:14 often from full time finishers so I assume they might like a Bigger/different model of Kremlin.

Regarding my pump. I suspect it’s time for some rebuilding. The last time I broke the pump down and really went through everything was a year ago. Replaced some of the seals/orings. I had noticed the beginning of some wear to the shim looking things that stack together on the rod (I forget what they’re called in the manual). The metal balls looked to be in good condition- no visible surface marks, but maybe they are worn anyhow? I’m not sure as I just don’t have enough experience working on/rebuilding the pumps and knowing what to look for besides obvious stuff.

Can you post a picture of the set up for a fluid pressure regulator in the system? If getting rid of winks is as simple as that I would love to set this pump up to eliminate it.

appreciate the info guys. I would love to go somewhere and see this stuff in person, but so far I haven’t found a shop that really sells this type of gear in a brick/mortar store that you can talk to the guys in person. Always just staring an an online photo and the write ups.

I’m close on the boarder NY/NJ. Unsure where you guys are, but if you’re in the tri-state do you know of any stores that cater to these types of finishing systems?

11/11/20       #5: Wagner Wildcat/ Puma ...
Shane Welch

the kremlin 10:14's are little work horses and the entry level into kremlin AAA... they are fine fine pumps and spray beautiful. If you run the pump for 4-5 hours a day you will wear out the throat seal every 4-5 months if your spraying opaque's and primers and the piston seal will wear about the same.. Not a huge deal to plan to replace the lower unit seal kit every 4-8 months depending on how much abuse you throw at it.... the excite gun wont have any issues until well after a solid year of use... just the normal front fluid nozzle ring and tip seals wear out.... The 15C25 pump is a better intermediate pump and what we run the majority off..... plenty of horsepower for anything we throw at them and about the same seal life..... both of those pump you can break down the lower and clean/ replace seals in under 30 minutes if you have a big vise and some decent size wrenches... some over 30mm... I actually own a CAT of my own at home and it has served me well for 15 years for side projects... it is easy to break down and replace seals as well... I just see the kremlin atomizing so much better than the cat personally. i have zero experience with wagner pumps.....

11/11/20       #6: Wagner Wildcat/ Puma ...
chris

if you need a supplier try Schweitzer and crosson. scspray.com
they are in Pa. but serve whole tri state area.

11/11/20       #7: Wagner Wildcat/ Puma ...
Leo G Member

I got 11 years out of mine using it about 40 hours a month. Granted by the time I got it rebuilt the pump was barely functioning. But it died rather abruptly and was working good until it wasn't.

I had to rebuild both the upper and lower sections and it cost about $600 to do that.

The upper seal had been leaking slightly for years. You could tell because when I used 2K the oil would congeal because the 2K leaked into it. Still didn't affect any of my finishes for that whole time. I don't use the Kremlin suggested oil, it very expensive. I used run of the mill mineral oil and have never had any compatibility issues.

11/21/20       #8: Wagner Wildcat/ Puma ...
scott

I have never used Wagner, so can’t comment on them.
I have used CAT, Merkur and Kremlin, my favourite pump by a mile is the Kremlin Rexon and in the 30:1 ratio, you can spray the thickest materials all day long.
A smaller pump will cause shear on the fluid when pumping a thicker fluid.
If you choose the Wagner I would choose the 28:1 model.
I buy a lot of the seals and o-rings from a local seal shop, my cat pumps I have rebuilt for really cheap.
The Kremlin parts are more expensive so that is one thing to consider, but if you clean and lube your stuff it will last a long time, most pumps of any brand that crap out, have been abused and neglected. Or like Leo said, used for a long time.


Post a Response
  • Notify me of responses to this thread
  • Subscribe to email updates on this Forum
  • To receive email notification of additions to this forum thread,
    enter your name and email address, and then click the
    "Keep Me Posted" button below.

    Please Note: If you have posted a message or response,
    do not submit this request ... you are already signed up
    to receive notification!

    Your Name:
    E-Mail Address:
    Enter the correct numbers into the field below:
     

    Date of your Birth:



    Return to top of page

    Buy & Sell Exchanges | Forums | Galleries | Site Map

    FORUM GUIDELINES: Please review the guidelines below before posting at WOODWEB's Interactive Message Boards (return to top)

  • WOODWEB is a professional industrial woodworking site. Hobbyist and homeowner woodworking questions are inappropriate.
  • Messages should be kept reasonably short and on topic, relating to the focus of the forum. Responses should relate to the original question.
  • A valid email return address must be included with each message.
  • Advertising is inappropriate. The only exceptions are the Classified Ads Exchange, Machinery Exchange, Lumber Exchange, and Job Opportunities and Services Exchange. When posting listings in these areas, review the posting instructions carefully.
  • Subject lines may be edited for length and clarity.
  • "Cross posting" is not permitted. Choose the best forum for your question, and post your question at one forum only.
  • Messages requesting private responses will be removed - Forums are designed to provide information and assistance for all of our visitors. Private response requests are appropriate at WOODWEB's Exchanges and Job Opportunities and Services.
  • Messages that accuse businesses or individuals of alleged negative actions or behavior are inappropriate since WOODWEB is unable to verify or substantiate the claims.
  • Posts with the intent of soliciting answers to surveys are not appropriate. Contact WOODWEB for more information on initiating a survey.
  • Excessive forum participation by an individual upsets the balance of a healthy forum atmosphere. Individuals who excessively post responses containing marginal content will be considered repeat forum abusers.
  • Responses that initiate or support inappropriate and off-topic discussion of general politics detract from the professional woodworking focus of WOODWEB, and will be removed.
  • Participants are encouraged to use their real name when posting. Intentionally using another persons name is prohibited, and posts of this nature will be removed at WOODWEB's discretion.
  • Comments, questions, or criticisms regarding Forum policies should be directed to WOODWEB's Systems Administrator
    (return to top).

    Carefully review your message before clicking on the "Send Message" button - you will not be able to revise the message once it has been sent.

    You will be notified of responses to the message(s) you posted via email. Be sure to enter your email address correctly.

    WOODWEB's forums are a highly regarded resource for professional woodworkers. Messages and responses that are crafted in a professional and civil manner strengthen this resource. Messages that do not reflect a professional tone reduce the value of our forums.

    Messages are inappropriate when their content: is deemed libelous in nature or is based on rumor, fails to meet basic standards of decorum, contains blatant advertising or inappropriate emphasis on self promotion (return to top).

    Libel:   Posts which defame an individual or organization, or employ a tone which can be viewed as malicious in nature. Words, pictures, or cartoons which expose a person or organization to public hatred, shame, disgrace, or ridicule, or induce an ill opinion of a person or organization, are libelous.

    Improper Decorum:   Posts which are profane, inciting, disrespectful or uncivil in tone, or maliciously worded. This also includes the venting of unsubstantiated opinions. Such messages do little to illuminate a given topic, and often have the opposite effect. Constructive criticism is acceptable (return to top).

    Advertising:   The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not an advertising venue. Companies participating in a Forum discussion should provide specific answers to posted questions. WOODWEB suggests that businesses include an appropriately crafted signature in order to identify their company. A well meaning post that seems to be on-topic but contains a product reference may do your business more harm than good in the Forum environment. Forum users may perceive your references to specific products as unsolicited advertising (spam) and consciously avoid your web site or services. A well-crafted signature is an appropriate way to advertise your services that will not offend potential customers. Signatures should be limited to 4-6 lines, and may contain information that identifies the type of business you're in, your URL and email address (return to top).

    Repeated Forum Abuse: Forum participants who repeatedly fail to follow WOODWEB's Forum Guidelines may encounter difficulty when attempting to post messages.

    There are often situations when the original message asks for opinions: "What is the best widget for my type of shop?". To a certain extent, the person posting the message is responsible for including specific questions within the message. An open ended question (like the one above) invites responses that may read as sales pitches. WOODWEB suggests that companies responding to such a question provide detailed and substantive replies rather than responses that read as a one-sided product promotion. It has been WOODWEB's experience that substantive responses are held in higher regard by our readers (return to top).

    The staff of WOODWEB assume no responsibility for the accuracy, content, or outcome of any posting transmitted at WOODWEB's Message Boards. Participants should undertake the use of machinery, materials and methods discussed at WOODWEB's Message Boards after considerate evaluation, and at their own risk. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages it deems inappropriate. (return to top)


  • Forum Posting Help
    Your Name The name you enter in this field will be the name that appears with your post or response (return to form).
    Your Website Personal or business website links must point to the author's website. Inappropriate links will be removed without notice, and at WOODWEB's sole discretion. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    E-Mail Address Your e-mail address will not be publicly viewable. Forum participants will be able to contact you using a contact link (included with your post) that is substituted for your actual address. You must include a valid email address in this field. (return to form)
    Subject Subject may be edited for length and clarity. Subject lines should provide an indication of the content of your post. (return to form)
    Thread Related Link and Image Guidelines Thread Related Links posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should point to locations that provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related Link that directs visitors to an area with inappropriate content will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    Thread Related File Uploads Thread Related Files posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. Video Files: acceptable video formats are: .MOV .AVI .WMV .MPEG .MPG .MP4 (Image Upload Tips)   If you encounter any difficulty when uploading video files, E-mail WOODWEB for assistance. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related File that contains inappropriate content will be removed, and uploaded files that are not directly related to the message thread will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links, files, or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    Sponsors
    • SAMES North America Corporation
      Precision Spraying Solutions From Pumps To Complete Application Systems-Design and Manufacture of Process Equipment Including Airspray, Airmix, Airless, Rexson Dispense, Electrostatic and Powder Coat
    • Unique Machine & Tool
      Industrial Machinery for Door and Drawer Production
    • TotalFinishingSUPPLIES.com
      Solutions and supplies from spray tips to spray booths for all your woodworking needs
    • Carter Products
      Band Saw Guides, Blades, Wheels, Tires, Line Lasers and 2D Projectors, Wide Belt Sanding Accessories, Vacuum Holding Systems and More
    • EX-FACTORY INC.
      Offering New & Used Woodworking Machinery including Auctions & Liquidations
    • Supergrit Abrasives
      Industrial Quality Abrasives Manufactured by Leading US and Foreign Companies
    • Simantech
      New & Used Machinery, Supplies, Tooling, Parts, and Abrasive Products

    Become a Sponsor today!