Applying water base paint to a solvent-based finish…

Hello everyone… I have always been of the opinion that it is never a good idea to put a water-based paint, i.e. Sherwin-Williams emerald and or any other type of water-based product on top of a solvent-based finish… The finish applied by most cabinet box manufacturers. As we all know, typical painters have jumped on the bandwagon of painting kitchen cabinets. I have seen a bunch of issues as a result of these water-based paint being used on top of solvent-based finishes. I am in the Chicagoland market and I personally am not willing to apply a water-based finish on top of a solvent-based product. (Per se) I don’t personally believe they can actually bind properly and people are asking for a disaster to happen. Typically painters will put an oil based or a shellac base primer on top of the solvent-based finish and then put a urethane type of coating on top of it. Maybe it is just me, but I am not willing to repaint someone’s kitchen cabinets for $3000, etc. as an example. I personally think painters are destroying the market of professional finishers being able to charge good money to provide a stellar product that is better than a manufacturer’s quality finish.

I personally will bring back the doors and drawer fronts to my shop to be primed and painted using a solvent-based lacquer. I also will not paint the vinyl/laminate sides of kitchen cabinets either, because in my opinion, that is no different than painting a piece of glass and if you take your fingernail to it, it will peel off because they’re both non porous surfaces.

What are you guys opinions about really any type of water-based product going on top of a solvent-based finish… A good or a bad idea?

I also find when painters use a cheap caulk and caulk the panel where it meets the stile and rail, it will also crack in a matter of time. I personally will only use tower tech caulk, because it has a high elasticity and will move with the expansion and contraction.

As far as the sides of cabinets go, I will purchase sheet goods of a matching species of wood to be shop painted and then field applied. If it is a closed grain would like maple or cherry, I will just use MDF. This has been a very frustrating situation for me, because people are continually comparing me price point wise to a painter and ignoring the value part of what they are going to receive. I also don’t believe in setting up shop inside someone’s kitchen and or their garage. To me that is very unprofessional and there is no way to control the dust.

Something else I believe is a bad idea with all of this is this, water is the one thing that will destroy kitchen cabinets, the tools are cleaned up by water, the paint is dissolvable by water, so in my opinion, in theory, it makes absolutely no sense at all to use a water-based product and an area where water is the one thing that destroys solvent-based finishes.

I am sure There are some water-based finishes that have come a long way, but I just don’t see the true chemically binding properly together. The only thing, and I mean the only thing I will use a water-based paint on is the faces themselves, to prevent me having to spray inside of their home.

Lastly, I have never seen a water-based paint from a painter that have looked nearly as good as the solvent-based finishes most of us use.

Thoughts?

What are you guys doing?

Are u finding the same things I am?

Thx!

You effectively know little or nothing about modern(20 years) water borne finishes.

Film finishes do not bind together. They bond. There is chemical bonding and mechanical bonding. Some finishes allow you to recoat in a green area of curing. It has solidified but is not fully hardened. You will get decent chemical bonds between the two coats. It is time critical for you to know your specific products.

If the finish is allowed to dry or chemical bonding is not possible then the 1st coat must be abraded. In 95% of finishing cases you allow it to dry and sand it to remove defects and guarantee that you are getting a good bond.

In the case of waterborne finishes they are by nature more adhesive. They will stick to glass. As to applying waterborne over solvent base, the bonding is a non issue. In reverse solvent over waterborne the solvents can attack the waterborne basecoat.

The primary concern with using different coatings is the hardness. There is a theory that if you coat a flexible finish with a more brittle finish it will crack. In other words it is better to use a more flexible waterborne finish to coat a harder solvent based finish.

In reality its probably not a real concern on a kitchen cabinet. The cabinet isn't moving in a way which would crack a finish.

It is good practice to use a primer over old work to help with defects and ensure good bonding. BIN white shellac primer is the ideal primer for kitchen remodels where you have an existing solvent finish and you want to topcoat with a waterborne finish.

As to your quality being better than some other guy's. I've seen many kitchens that were done in place using Pro kitchen/bath grade waterborne finishes and it looks as good as something coming out of a shop. I've also seen some terrible products coming out of other peoples shops. The customer should have not accepted them.

We've been using waterborne finishes in the shop since about 2005. We choose to use them as much as possible. I suggest you go on ML Campbell and read the details of both of their solvent/waterborne finishes. Educate yourself.

Bind/bond tomato/tomato

You are right, I know very little about waterborne and or water-based finishes.

Other than floating your ego, you are not much help to my posting for directly answering questions I was requesting.

I’m glad you have been using waterbase finishes for a long time, as I have been using solvent-based for a long time. If you are able to get off of your high horse and come to a level playing field of trying to help educate me on what exactly I’m asking information about, I will hear what you have to say, but slamming me is not only a disrespectful method of communication, but it is uncalled for as well.

Mike, That's a great way to get help. It's the internet. If you want strictly technical information, call the manufacturer. Just don't call them names.

Rich,

A great way of getting help is by starting off a paragraph to someone asking a question telling them they don’t know what the hell they’re talking about? I think a little diplomacy should be an order here.

You are right, it is the Internet and there are all kinds. To your point, calling the manufacturer… Which manufacturer… Doesn’t do a damn bit of good to help answer my questions of real world experience. That’s a pretty useless piece of advice.

That would be about as helpful as someone saying who can teach me how to spray finish out of a gun and someone responds back by saying call a gun manufacturer. A lot of help that would be. 🙄
Clearly you don’t have any helpful advice to offer either, so thanks for the useless post. 👍

The real sad part is we are all supposed to be professional woodworkers helping each other, but obviously there are some people who think they are too good to help others. It’s a shame the old adage of being a tradesman and not passing along trade secrets has not stayed in the past.

Have a great weekend

Mike,

As a neutral observer of this thread I have to say that Adam's response is totally in line and does directly respond to your issue.

You complained about him criticizing you with his first line but then you came right out and acknowledged he was correct in stating you don't know much about water borne finishes. And yet half your original post was stating that you felt they were an inadequate material for refinishing cabinetry that had solvent based coatings. Frankly, half that original post was spent pretty much indirectly bashing anyone who used waterborne finishes or did the work onsite. What did you expect for a response? When you come out swinging there is a good chance people are going to be defensive. And quite frankly Adam was not defensive at all. He was giving you the facts as he saw them from his experience. There was a lot of good information and advice in his post and it was not presented in any sort of egotistical manner.

You made a number of blatantly incorrect statements about waterborne finishes in your initial post. For one thing once cured waterborne finishes do not degrade nor wash away. If that were the case nearly every painted house in the US would be dripping paint. Once cured waterborne finishes are as stable as solvent based finishes, and in fact are more flexible for wood movement over time. As Adam stated early on there are over 20 years of development in that area for cabinet shop finishing and they've come a long ways.

I recently used a catalyzed waterborne finish on a small kitchen and was very pleased with the results. Catalyzed waterborne finish..........25 years ago who would have thought !! A long ways from the first waterborne finishes I tried and tossed away back then.

There is nothing at all wrong with putting a water based topcoat over a solvent primer or base coat. Indeed for many years that was the recommended, and still one of the best, methods for house painting. There are great water based house primers out there now too, as well as those paint and primer in one products that still have to be proven out as long lasting. If one has concerns about adhesion then pre-sanding to scuff the surface, or a bonding primer are the answers. Note: and there is a big difference between "bind" and "bond" regardless of how you meant to use the word. You can look up the definitions to confirm that. It is not "I say tomato and you say tomato".

Finally shellac has been used as a separation coat between dis-similar products for as long as I've been around (and I can assure you I'm no spring chicken!). It sticks to most anything and most anything sticks to it. BIN is a superb professional product in these situations. In fact a 320 grit sand down of a BIN sprayed surface will yield an almost marble like feel to the surface. The only place I've ever seen BIN fail was when it was used as in full coverage on the exterior of a building; this is clearly described in the instructions right on the can as a non-compatible use.

While you might say that none of this is responding to your question it is in fact doing so. You made statements that beg for responses beyond the simple "I agree" or "I don't agree" with you. Adam pointed out numerous reasons why your outlook was outdated and that was a direct response to your questions. Sorry that those statements disagreed with your opinion. If you only wanted responses that agreed with you it would have been better to say so.

I fear I've been a little harsh here and do apologize for the criticisms. I don't want to drive you away from Woodweb; in fact I look forward to many more posts from you down the road. I enjoyed reading your inquiry and just felt it was a little misinformed and one sided. I'd just ask that you remain open to the responses whether they be positive or negative in relation to the way you see things. Believe me when I say that in the, I don't know, perhaps 20 plus years I've been lurking here, I've had my share of times when I got pretty badly bashed over something I posted so I understand your feelings. There are a lot of good people here though with lifetimes of experience they are willing to share.

BH Davis

Mike

I'm going to give my opinion about your rant
I have been a cabinet installer for over 25 years
I started to refinish existing cabinets about 5-6 years ago and I'm still not doing it full time!
There's a difference between a finisher and a painter
I could go on explaining the difference but the main difference is one charges more than the other (take a guess on which one)
You asked if it's ok to use a water based product on top of a solvent based
The short answer is yes
The key here is to prep your work right
Scuff sanding/clean
Then use a good primer/sealer
Lots of painters out there does it that way
Do I like it? No

As far as making the kitchen a workshop,I do it all the time!
How else are you going to refinish the cabinets?
I spend a lots of time sealling the area with ZipWall
I set up an exhaust fan and uses vacuum when sanding
I have a trailer that I turned it into a spray booth
So all the doors and drawer fronts gets refinish inside the trailer

You also mentioned that you don't think that water based paint is not suitable for wet areas
Because you can use water to clean and disolved water based paint
Well... True but when water based paint is dry you can't disolved with water
Think about this,how does paint holds up outside on your house?
Does the paint comes off when it rains?

It's all about using the right product and good preparations
Water based, waterborne, solvent based,..it doesn't matter
It's whatever you are comfortable to use and also what the client wants to spend
I've lost many jobs to other painters
Not because of quality work but to a cheaper labor

BH Davis

YOU BEAT ME TO IT!

Guys like BH have been reading my posts on WW for almost 20 years. I try my best to be as factual as possible. Pointing out your lack of knowledge was a fact. Some people can't handle the truth.

I would paraphrase Mike's original statement(not many questions) as:
painters suck
waterborne finishes suck

I know many excellent house painters and yacht brightwork guys who can field finish as good or better than us shop guys.

BH,
I used MLC's Aquabarnice catalyzed waterborne for the first time on a sweet qtr white oak countertop in 2007. It was very impressive way back then.

We've had waterborne products coming out of our shop that would rival most solvent finishes for the last 8 years.

BH and Mastercabman,

Ty for your educational and polite responses.

I’m not saying what Adam said was wrong, rather he clearly did not like the fact that I was discounting water based finishes in general and that is not my issue.

I don’t disagree that water-based finishes have come a long way in all these years, but I do still believe solvent based finishes are far superior. I did a test, maybe a bit unfair test, but it has nonetheless, where I sprayed the best shellac primer and the best urethanized water-based topcoat by Sherwin-Williams, and an Ilva 2K urethane let it dry for one week, put a water bottle on top of the finish with literally pouring water underneath the water bottle. I came back 24 hours later to find a brown stain line from the moisture on both of them. I took my rag and I was able to easily wipe up and remove the stain from the 2K finish but with the water-based finish, it literally made the bottle of water sink into the finish and left an impression, Plus I could not remove the brown stain on the WB.

Rightfully so, I did not let the water based finish cure for the recommended 30 days. Here in Chicagoland, we fortunately are not forced to use just water-based finishes. I guess you could say I am kind of the type/can’t teach new tricks to an old dog. After being in this business for 27 years and only using solvent finishes, it makes it very difficult to even consider using a water-based product.

To the point of being a difference between a professional finisher and a painter, I completely agree there is a huge difference. I guess I am of the opinion, painters do not belong painting kitchen cabinets and or any other type of cabinetry and I feel as though they basically jumped on the bandwagon and have taken advantage of the fact that so many people want their kitchen cabinets to be white. I just don’t believe painters have the knowledge, skill set and background to properly clean and chemically prep the kitchen cabinets from the grease, etc.

I don’t doubt there are some jobs that are successful, but at the same time, I went to a customers house the other day and saw their kitchen painted by a painter and the finish was so horrible, it looks like the walls of a house. It was almost as if the person use a 3/4” nap roller on the doors and drawer fronts. I very politely told the customer while being a custom cabinet maker and being able to manufacture anything you want, I can’t duplicate this finish… Without saying the finish on your cabinets looks like complete shit and I can’t do that type of work.

I realize, know and understand there are different types of people and qualities of products people do, but it still just kills me to see that type of work being done and it is unfortunately my competition. It has come to where I can educate a customer until they are blue in the face and when the day is done, they still end up taking the painter and take their chances, because the cost outweighs the quality. It is truly sad what our economy and thought process of people today has come to.

Since you guys seem to know a lot more about waterbase than I do obviously, have you ever tried to put a water-based dye and topcoat on top of a solvent-based let’s say Home Depot kitchen to color shift it to a darker and different color tone on top of the existing?

I understand your point about the paint running off the house, but I guess my question is more geared toward putting the water-based product on top of a solvent-based finish.

So in regard to finishesthat are water-based that you guys put on top of solvent-based finishes, who is do you recommend? Specifically? Do you all also use bin as the primer?

Mike
You know, maybe you should be thankful that there are people that does not such a good job
That makes the rest of us look good!
You have to remember that not everybody is perfect and some people don't have the knowledge like we do
If clients keeps calling them and hires them then they just keep on doing what they do
It may not be to your satisfaction but if they get paid then the job was accepted by the client
Remember they have to live with it not you!
There are so many different products out there and you choose whatever is best for you and what you are familiar with
Maybe that's why those painters are using a water based product because that's all they know
Maybe they tried solvent based and end up with a disaster because of lack of knowledge so they just stick with something more user friendly
The thing is, I lost many jobs to others but I never got a call from those clients that wanted me to come back to their house and fix the bad job that my competitor did
So they must be satisfied with the work they did
We can't allowed ourself to criticize other people's work when they just trying to make a living just like you and me
So if using waterborne on top of solvent works then why not?
Like others said,use a good primer/barrier like the BIN primer
I've used it in the past,good stuff
Hope this helps

Mastercabman,

I agree with you on all points. It is still very unfortunate there are people out there doing craft work and what’s even more unfortunate is their amount of people that are willing to except it as if that is considered a good job. I personally just cannot bring myself to do painters type of work and charge $20 an hour or the like for high-quality.

There is a painting company local to me who did a video and posted it on Facebook for advertising… They were actually sanding and painting the cabinets for the customers dishes still in the cabinets. I was completely blown away and could not believe they would be stupid enough to advertise that way. While I realize we are not all Bill Gates and or Donald Trump, etc. and the majority of people have a budget to live under, I have always stressed high quality and customer service. I am fortunately staying and have stayed busy through this whole pandemic crap. I would like to be busier, but not at the expense of needing to work for $20 an hour and giving someone a superior job to a painter.

I have heard a lot of good things about them, but my biggest fear is, if I do that type of work and it fails, I am screwed. I would need to strip the entire kitchen and redo it and or be in a position to need to replace their kitchen. I have always told customers that I could not bring myself to do the type of work a painter does and if they are going to price compare me to a painter, please don’t bother wasting my time… In not so many words.

My situation is kind of a cliché, because I am not really willing to spray is solvent-based finish inside someone’s home and therefore I would use waterbase products on the faces only. I would like to hear some recommendations of some water-based paint people are using that I could use on the cabinet faces themselves. What’s really interesting is my price point for solvent-based paint is actually cheaper than me purchasing water-based products from Sherwin-Williams and or Benjamin Moore. The downside is my solvent-based finishes are not Rushville and or raw so therefore I have to use a water-based product on the cabinet faces and anything I cannot remove. Who is water-based product do you use? My supplier gave me A sample gallon of a water-based paint by Elva, but I have not tried it out yet. It is supposed to be brushable and roller friendly.

I have a friend of mine who is a store manager at a Sherwin-Williams paint store and while she tries to convince me to use emerald and or their water base products, she understands why I don’t.

Ok Mike
I think I understand better what you're asking after reading your last post
So you want to stay with solvent based but you don't want to use it inside the house while it's occupied
But you'll use it on the doors and drawers at your shop
First thing first
No matter what you spray,it's all the same
If you're not sealed properly,it's going to go every where and it will smell thru out the house
I spend a lot of time to seal the area that I spray with an exhaust fan
But I respect what you are trying to do
So if I was going to do what you want to do
I would look at a waterborne version of the solvent based product you want to use
So for me,I use ML.Campbell
I use their white vinyl primer and then top coat with their latest CV call Turino
So I would get MLC waterborne I think it's called Aqualente
I would get all of my paint from the same brand and same dealer
You have to be careful when using different brand because color/sheen maybe very different from one brand to another
It would be safer to have the same technician to mix the 2 different based product to the matching color you want
If you decide to go that route
Most waterborne primer are very good
But here's a tip that I got from my sale rep
After putting first light coat,make sure you let it dry all the way
Then recoat normally and you shouldn't have any problems with your top coat

Mastercabman,

It is the fear of using a solvent-based finish inside someone’s house and taking a chance of an arc happening in a switch and also the chance of someone getting sick. Yes, I’d bring all of the doors and drawer fronts back to my shop to be sprayed with a solvent-based lacquer paint in my spray booth with a makeup air system.

If I’m going to use a 2K urethane, then I have two choices, I can either strip it in my strip tank and start from the raw or I can use isolante as a barrier coat and then put the urethane primer and paint on top of that.

Do you find it necessary to put shellac on as a first coating before you would put your primer and topcoat on? I also have grave concerns for chemical reactions that may happen. I know how to fix them using solvent-based products, but I have not a clue on how to fix them with waterbase.

Throughout the years of doing this, I have been successfully able to fix fisheye, orange peel and even as bad as avocado skin, but when it comes to water-based paint, how does one fix those type of issues…… I have seen a lot of professional painters who will just slap on more primer and more paint to hide chemical reactions and then you are exceeding the mil thickness of the product and then you take a chance of other chemical problems happening. E.g. cracking, peeling, adhesion issues and more.

I saw one job where a painter used agualante and it did not look that great and also the customer had cracking going on where the panel met the stile and rail. His wife said the cracking started a couple of weeks after the job is done, but they don’t want to call back the guy who did the job for whatever reason. I told them I could cut out the cracking and use a caulk with a high elasticity and that will hopefully help prevent it from happening in the future, but I would need to recoat all of the doors. When I gave him the cost to do so, he said he didn’t pay that much for the entire kitchen to be painted… I wanted to say to him yeah, and look at the horseshit job you got done. Is that painter did a halfway decent job, you and I will not be having this conversation.… But obviously I had to keep my mouth shut and not say that.

The Agualente didn't crack on it's own. The surface it was attached to moved and cracked it. If that same area was finished with any other product solvent or wb it would have failed as well.

We've been using Agualente since it was introduced by MLC in the mid 2000's. It is an excellent product.

The wb's do not have the same problems with film finish thickness as solvent CV. We've sprayed 6-8 coats on pieces of furniture or fancy countertops. No issues whatsoever.

This entire thread has taken an abrupt turn. Apparently we need to find Mike a wb product to do face frames in the field and the doors and drawer fronts will be sprayed in his shop with a solvent based product.

The sheen, color, and hardness will have to be an exact match otherwise it will look worse than all of the inferior work his local painters get away with.

Any finisher knows that custom paints of the same flavour are incredibly hard to match. Ordering 2 separate batches often do not look the same.

Using two different products regardless of their solvent system will not work. Period end of story.

Chemically stripping doors so you can finish them with 2K poly gave me a good laugh. Cheers

My $0.02 on the original question of water over solvent is 100% yes. Ive been in the construction/cabinet world for 30 years and dont know of a more precarious situation than to put solvent over anything unless your really sure of what your dealing with, barrier coats, and so on. Recipe for disaster.

The statements in your first post are 180 degrees backwards to anything I have ever known with regards to finishes though I would never rate myself as anything remotely close to a "finisher". Thats a level several rungs above my level of knowledge.

Ive known several guys that sound very much like you and wouldnt be surprised for them to have the identical post. Only use oil based house paints, solvent based cab finishes, etc.. I dont disagree that a lot of times, especially with millowork and clear/natural finish, the solvents look phenomenal and are much harder to get close to with water but pigmented finishes I just dont see it. That mindset with these guys, when you get talking with them, is usually steeped in things they heard eons ago and never stayed up with the technology. Even products like KemAquaPlus are pretty damn mind blowing and when you are in the re-finishing/re-painting world for me at least eliminating as many of the compatibility variables is a flat out no brainer. I cant even imagine all the additional variables with a kitchen re-finish with grease, grime, cleaning products.

We cut CNC parts for a shop that is of a similar mindset in your first post. Older guy, 70, his pretty much go-to statement is "thats just the way Ive always done it". Which is fine. He builds the same cabs, same finishes, same everything, as he did in the 70's and has a small customer base that appreciates that. The problem in my opinion is the world, customer, and tech, is moving so fast now it just a no brainer to cut your nose off to spite your face by consciously being a luddite. This guys cabs will never fly in a home of today or for the customer of today. Aint gonna happen, and its reflected in his business. But he's at the end and I guess unwilling to change/adapt beyond the cheapest soft close undermount slides and soft close euro hinges which Im sure were implemented heels dug in and begrudgingly. Dont get me wrong, beautiful cabs and finishes, but....

If your trying to be profitable and competitive it would seem imperative to get your finish rep(s) into your shop for a day with a bunch of samples and let you spray some panels that are both in and out of your comfort zone then beat the hell out of them. Leave them outside, spill coffee on them, knock them around on the shop floor, and let your conclusions be based in fact rather than 30 year old routine.

MarkB,

You’re right, I'm pretty much set in my ways, BUT, this whole conversation/feedback has been very enlightening and “helpful”, even from the individual who who needs to learn diplomacy. The truth never hurts, rather it is more about someone’s delivery. Even though I have many years in this business like many of you, I’m still not dumb enough to not at least listen to what someone else has to say. I think there are ways people can get their flight across and do it in a respectful manner… That kind of the same tactic not being able to tell someone to go to hell and not actually telling them that.

Regarding your comment about having my suppliers come by, I have done that you sans and have a seat a pigmented topcoat water-based by Ilva, which I’m going to try out in the next couple of days. I just have to pick up some bin. I have sprayed some inexpensive doors I bought from a local Hall center out of oak and maple, which I’m going to tape off half and do with myself and paste and the other half will be with the water base on top of a clear lacquer.

I realize and understand I will need to adapt to the changes over time, but it is definitely not something I’m willing to just hop in with both feet and no protection.

I will proceed with caution doing several samples in different situations using the water-based paint and see what I think of the end result after it has fully cured out.

As I’m sure many of you know who have done kitchen jobs, you can spend just as much time taping everything off as you would doing the actual work.

I guess one thing I am set in my ways about and I am not willing to change is, I am not going to be working for $20 an hour like a painter would be. I have too many years behind me and have too much of a well-rounded skill set, between cabinet making, furniture building, stripping and refinishing, touchup and repair, including on-site dog chew repairs as well, etc, that I believe there should be a certain value that is upheld with that type of work being able to be done at a high-quality, professional level.

Thank you for everyone’s help and advice about your situation, including you Adam. Best of luck to everyone and here’s to us all being able to stay profitable and stay in business. Have a great weekend

No one said throw caution to the wind and take a risk just blasting a paying job with a new product your not solid on. Nor is anyone cheerleading the rah rah for waterborne. My shop sprays 100% waterborne because Im trying to stay ahead of the curve.

To the comments regarding the individual that needs diplomacy,... if your going to ask for feedback on the internet, or even a professional internet forum,... you'd better toughen up. I found Adam's response tepid and even perhaps watered down compared to several I have made that have been deleted by the powers that be. Consider yourself lucky.

Something you have to realize is a lot of very valuable contributors (not me) here and on other forums take the time to respond, and continue to respond, to questions over and over and over and its simply not their job to be considerate of anyones fragility. We're all beating ourselves against the rocks try to run a business. If you cant realize on a couple re-reads of your initial post that it reads a bit a-hole-ish, whether that was your intent or not, then it is what it is. Learn to present your concerns differently.

The bottom line is things have changed by leaps and bounds in the last 27 years in finishes. How anyone hasnt stayed up on that and is in business simply befuddles me. Its like the difference between a model A and a tesla.... The mechanic who can only work on a Model A went out of business with the dinosaurs. You are the one that has fallen out of currency. So dont get pissed off at the guy who's had to stay current when your heels are dug in the sand. Time to put your tail between your legs, get your head down, and play catchup.

You could have been testing these finishes for years and rejecting them just to stay current.

In my little zit of a shop a huge percentage of our work is already spec'ing water because of off-gassing, HAPS free, Formaldehyde, government work, architect and designer spec
s,... I couldnt stay on track with a 20 year old mindset if I tried.

Good luck.

MarkB

While I appreciate your standpoint and where you’re coming from, I’m just not in a position to want to switch over to water-based finishes or waterborne at this time.

Since you seem to have a decent amount of experience utilizing water-based finishes, how do you handle people that want to change the color of a box store cabinet using water-based dyes? Then I assume you’ll use a water-based clear topcoat.… Who’s product do you recommend that is a commercial grade? I’m not looking for a general finishes or the like.

In actuality, I am not butt hurt over the situation, even though my postings may come across as such. I just think there are mature and better ways to discuss things then to slam someone personally. The fact that I don’t like water-based finishes isn’t a personal jab against anyone who does use them, rather it is just not something I have tried and nor am I am willing to do at this time without a lot of testing.

Its just not the work we do. There would never, and will never, be a job that comes through the shop asking us to re-work a box store cabinet(s). Its just nothing we would ever come across. By the time we re-worked the box cabinet we could have built what they wanted, finished, at a much higher quality, so I have no idea how I would handle that other than to pass.

Again, with regards to a box store cabinet, you have zero idea of whats on that cabinet for a finish.... so regardless your at seal/barrier coat and kiss it up to god on whatever your putting over it after that. So even your solvent is at risk. Even everyone talking about BIN, voids nearly every finish though we all do it when needed. Break out of the product envelope and your on your own. Any rep that tells you its ok is either putting their faith in you or doesnt care. Its a cue card response. No warranty over anything but our own product.

Again, no one is trying to say you should like water based finishes, stick with what you know unless you find another option. But you state directly you have not tried any, you have not tested any of the dozens and dozens, for whatever, emotional, ritual, reasons, you have no experience with any, yet your asking questions with regards to a safer topcoat over an unknown base material that will hold up for customers purchasing box store cabinets lol.

Literally, think about that... its comical. Your striving to put some high end finish on a box cabinet for a customer that will only pay for a box store cabinet and your fussing over the details. Something no makey no sensey.

The Italians are light years ahead when it comes to wb finishes. Renner seems to be the preferred choice for refinishers right now with Milesi not far behind. Envirolak out of Canada also makes high end wb finishes. I've been spray solvent for 18 years but i too am starting to transition more and more to wb. The newer generation of wb have the option of using crosslinkers (some with and some without aziridine) or an isocyante hardener that you can use if you're set up to spray them. Adding either dramatically improves the coating performance from what ive found. Check out eric reason on youtube or instagram, he's done extensive testing on a lot of different companies wb finishes

Mike,

I cut you off at the knees, because of your original post.

It was this long preaching lecture that said an entire group of workers(painters) do inferior work with inferior products(waterborne finishes). You go on and on that based on your vast experience that these guys are taking your business because of the above and they low ball prices.

There are certainly people who do as you have described, but they are the vast minority of our industry.

The ww is made up of professionals that have helped each other learn & share massive amounts of knowledge over the last twenty plus years.(checkout the knowledge base). It should be obvious to you by now that the other users of ww back my posts. Other than stating that you do not know what you are talking about, I stand by everything I have written. If you reread your first post it is effectively bashing people and products. We don’t tolerate that here.

Check your ego at the door, appreciate the time people take out of their day to answer questions, and be appreciative of the fact their hard earned knowledge may help you in your future ventures.

I’ve certainly increased my quality as well as earned more money by answering and asking a few thousand posts here.

I encourage you to stick with the wb. It will satisfy your needs while lowering the health impacts on you and your customers. Good luck with your journey

A few years a go I bought the pump.
My salesman for wood and clear coat showed up at the shop with sales rep form ML.Campbell and C.A. TECHNOLOGIES.
both sales ref gave me there card .
Go to the source so much is changing ML.Campbell has so many experts to answer your questions.
Since I bought the pump there is so many more product that have been added it is impossible to keep up .