Solid Wood Machining

You are not logged in. [ Login ] Why log in
(NOTE: Login is not required to post)

Table saw vs. Straight line rip saw

12/31/19       
Joseph Eberle Member

Website: http://www.jeberlewoodworking.com

Question: Should I replace one of my two table saws with a straight line rip saw?

Background: I run a two-man (looking for a third person now) cabinet shop focusing on kitchen and bath cabinetry. We use almost exclusively hardwoods for our face frames, doors, mouldings, and drawer boxes. Our 5hp Delta cabinet saw (with powerfeed) is set up for ripping hardwood while our 3hp table saw is used for cutting plywood. (I’ve got my eye on a sliding TS but that is another conversation for another day...)

Discussion: Should we switch the 5hp delta TS with powerfeed to a straight line rip saw? Can we use the SLR for ripping all hardwood stock, even to near-final widths? Would we have to use the other TS for both hardwood and plywood or would the SLR eliminate the need for a TS for ripping hardwood to final dimension...?

Thanks in advance!

12/31/19       #3: Table saw vs. Straight line rip saw ...
Dustin Orth

How many lineal feet do you process on average? The straight line ripsaw will run a lot of material to glue line capable with a good saw and good blades. A regular table saw has more a utility purpose that can do a lot of stuff but not ripping to the same level. We would sometimes plane material to width by gang stacking, results vary depending on the operator. Material can vary in width off the SLR depending on any tension in the board. Now I'm not knocking what this saw could do for you, I took a cabinet shop out of the past and improved production by quite a bit by speeding up just dealing with the solid wood. I used a powermatic SLR for about 14 years with very few issues. I just upgraded to a gang rip in a different venue. With the SLR I could straight line and rip to width about 600 BF an hour with one operator, with 2 people increase that to around 800 plus. Any other questions I can answer?

1/1/20       #4: Table saw vs. Straight line rip saw ...
SteveL Member

If you are gluing up panels for doors it will help speed things up quit.
However I would defiantly think a smaller shop can reap more gains from a sliding table saw for your sheets than a SLR for lumber. I got an older slider first then a old Mattison 202 after, the slider defiantly made more of a difference. I would be hard-pressed to give up the SLR now though.

1/1/20       #5: Table saw vs. Straight line rip saw ...
david zaret Member

what we've done is found a local supplier that provides our "cabinet facing" at a good price. so, i buy packs of narrow, consistent stock, .925" thick, straight lined and good to go for doors and face frames. i pay ~$.08 a linear foot. at that price, it doesn't make sense for us to own a SLR.

now, if you want to really improve your productivity as a small cabinet shop, consider stopping using the table saw for your carcass work, and get a CNC. i'd put the money there and find a good supplier for your straight lined lumber.

good luck!

-- dz

1/1/20       #6: Table saw vs. Straight line rip saw ...
Joseph Eberle Member

I rip large quantities of lumber inconsistently... Generally I’ve got only two bigger jobs going at once and it is just myself and another worker so there are days where neither of us touch lumber. A lot days are spent on the other processes in cabinetmaking. I like the thought of a beefy machine for ripping but maybe I don’t do it enough to justify the expense... I wonder if concentrating cash on a slider would make more sense right now... Hmmmm.
Anyway, thank you all for your advise and taking the time to give it.
(And to the respondent suggesting a CNC, the cut center is pretty, eh? Too bad I’m about $150k short in the ‘ol equipment budget...)

1/1/20       #7: Table saw vs. Straight line rip saw ...
Dustin Orth

I like the idea of subbing it out, my new endeavour is just that. Concentrating on custom trim, flooring and wood processing. No cabinets or furniture at all. Not sure where you are but maybe someone like me is close to you. Makes it a win win, you save the money you would have put out for a decent ripsaw and put that either in a slider or a basic CNC. If your handy and also have electrical knowledge you can buy a used CNC. That's how I managed to amass the larger items in my shop, bought at auctions and fixed them up. Pennies on the dollar.

1/2/20       #8: Table saw vs. Straight line rip saw ...
david zaret Member

our CNC was ~$60k. yeah, you can buy a german-made Biesse for 120k+, but fundamentally, our USA-made ShopSabre does the same thing, and uses standard components that we can replace. and it's a beast, we can run it all day, it doesn't complain. if you run a cabinet shop and you're cutting plywood on a table saw, i'd strongly consider finding a way to find $60k and get a CNC, it's a complete game-changer.

1/2/20       #9: Table saw vs. Straight line rip saw ...
SteveL Member

I agree with David. When I got the slider it was great, But when I got our Shop Sabre it changed everything for the better. It is not as scary as I thought it would be. Paired with mozaik it was really pretty easy, I was afraid it would take more computer smarts but it doesn't have to.

1/2/20       #10: Table saw vs. Straight line rip saw ...
David R Sochar Member

I would get a good, mid-level panel saw to process all your plywood. I'd also add a used, refurbished ripsaw for solids and roughing plywood. Keep one tablesaw, no feeder, for variety work.

Two man shop making cabinets with no panel saw? This is 2020, my friend - time to get with the times. All things I heard before buying my first panel saw.

Buy and plan for the future you cannot see or know, not today, or even tomorrow. When I started, my accountant wanted me to plan for 5 years down the road. I could only guess, so on paper, I went from a one man shop to a five man shop with a molder, wide belt, etc.

The reality? I got there in 3-1/2 years, with no struggle, surprising myself more than anything. Molder, wide belt, shapers, planers, etc all upgraded and paid for.

1/3/20       #11: Table saw vs. Straight line rip saw ...
Thomas

Joseph,
We are a two man cabinet shop also. Have been for a number of years. (like it that way) We have been using a Delta Unisaw for years and a SSC panel saw. We shopped for a slider and went back and forth between a slider or a cnc. By the time the last IWF came around we had decided to purchase a cnc. We purchased a Shop Sabre Pro408. Two years later now....I wish we had spent more on a larger machine. Our total cost with all installation was right at $40,000. This machine is a work horse and has increased out business more than 100 percent. A slider (Altendorf) would be nice but we now cut sheets for other companies. We load the machine and work on other products while the machine is running. CNC makes money while we make money. With a slider one of us would be on the machine. If i had it to do over again with what I know now, I would have borrowed the money years ago to purchase a cnc. A cnc will open opportunities for business like no other machine in your shop. Just my two cents worth.

1/3/20       #12: Table saw vs. Straight line rip saw ...
Joseph Member

CNC Fans-
A couple of concerns...
-The space in my shop is somewhat limited. I think I could put a full sized CNC in the space but not with a setup for loading or unloading. Also, If I'm not able to process at least 4x8 sheets, I see no purpose in our shop...
-I am what I call 'tech- limited'. My aptitude is for making sawdust, not code. What is the learning-curve for figuring out how to use the machine?
-I have 3ph, 230v electric in the shop... Is that enough or do I need 440v service?
-It seems that Shopsabre is popular here; is that a machine I should look at? What else is out there?
-I am a hard sell. I am not against CNCs per se but becasue it is such an unknown technology to myself, it is going to take some pretty hefty persuasion.

Anyway, thanks for all of your input.
-JJE

1/3/20       #13: Table saw vs. Straight line rip saw ...
david zaret Member

we have a 35' x 60' shop, and in it we have a 10'+ martin slider, and a ShopSabre IS408 CNC. the slider takes up far more space than the CNC, when you consider that it needs to... uh... slide.

that said, you do need room of either side of the CNC to load sheets, and ideally room off the other to unload parts. we have it set away from the wall ~8'. we also have a good tilting plywood cart for transport, and a few good parts carts for sorting and stacking labeled parts as they come off the CNC. the system works well for us. i just cut the parts for a high-end kitchen, and i cut 24 sheets by myself in ~6 hours. those parts assemble like lego, and are ready for all hardware - the end result is far superior to what i could do on the martin.

on power, unfortunately i was unable to run 3ph to the shop from the pole, so we run a digital phase converter (phase perfect), i think it can provide 250 amps or so. it easily handles our large dust collector, the CNC vac pump, and really anything else in the shop that's running simultaneously, without issue. the two biggest draws on the PP are when the wide belt starts up, and when the shaper turns off (there's a powered brake that seems to draw a lot of amperage). we've never exceeded the PP capacity, and it's never given us a moment of heartache.

with regards to the learning curve on the CNC, i would say that you do need basic proficiency of software, computers, file management, and then the willingness and aptitude to learn the design and control software. it's not complex stuff by any means, but if you have no interest in it, it'll be challenging. SS offers classes, i believe, and if you find a nearby guy with a CNC, you might get an hour or so to get up to speed. i am pretty confident that if you had basic computer knowledge (what's a file, directory, how to move files around, etc.) i could teach you the fundamentals of the CNC in two hours.

IMHO, it's worth the learning curve. i love my martin slider, and still use it for a lot of tasks, but compared to cutting plywood on the CNC, it's not even close.

good luck with whatever you do!

--- dz

1/3/20       #14: Table saw vs. Straight line rip saw ...
SteveL Member

I have the CNC (shop sabre) about 12'' away from the wall and sheets piled on the other side. We made a part cart out of some Baker scaffold that straddles the sheet pile total footprint 15'x15'. As always more space would be great but it works.
I would try Mozaik just to see what its all about, you may be surprised on how easy
it is few hundred $ and you will know if you can handle CNC (cheap reseach). $150 worth of training and you would be comfortable to cut parts. Their software is made for guys like us to understand and use.
The CNC machine is quite simple to run.

1/3/20       #15: Table saw vs. Straight line rip saw ...
david zaret Member

steve makes a great point - Mozaik is a subscription model, so it's really inexpensive to try out. it's a good idea to get your head around Mozaik first, at least at a high level, and if you like that way of working, consider a CNC to do the manufacturing.

1/5/20       #16: Table saw vs. Straight line rip saw ...
Karl E Brogger  Member

Website: http://www.sogncabinets.com

We got rid of our linebore when we got the cnc, and the dado saw doesn't get used much, but is still set up. That's about it.

There's still plenty of things that get cut on the cnc, because it's either too slow, or the accuracy isn't needed. Things like cabinet backs, ¼" door panels, and drawer bottoms. Some of those things can be gang cut too.

You can't compete with a cnc cutting parts manually if your parts require much machining.

I wouldn't want to go without an SLR anymore. Having a powerfeed on a tablesaw is way better than pushing stuff through by hand, but it's slow and you can't make use of the straight line ability. You save some money doing it yourself, and in my experience a good portion of the boards need that edge recut anyways. Even a junior rip saw like we've got pulls boards through at 60 ft/min. A bigger saw should be able to handle 4/4 at 100 ft/min.

1/5/20       #17: Table saw vs. Straight line rip saw ...
Karl E Brogger  Member

Website: http://www.sogncabinets.com

Plenty of things that DON'T get cut on the cnc.

I wish we could edit posts.

1/10/20       #18: Table saw vs. Straight line rip saw ...
the google Member

using an slr is night-and-day different than ripping on a cabinet saw (and even one with a power feeder). it is much more like a planner - load a board, machine grabs it, and you just have to catch it out the other end. i'd think you could easily save 50% time vs. ripping like you are now, and much safer since your hands aren't near the blade.

and i've got one for sale if you are interested. 230v 3p diehl. everything works and it is way less than a cnc.

1/10/20       #19: Table saw vs. Straight line rip saw ...
keith farr

For what its worth we buy our lumber straight lined and surfaced We use three sizes of door stile and three sizes of face frame regularly. We have fixed our straight line saw fence to the widest size of all those pieces Then we have "drop in spacers" that go can be placed next to fence When lumber comes in we use a homemade "scale board that can be held across a board to see the best yield each board can make. This scale has saw kerf included . For instance one mark on the board may give me two 3 1/8" rips and one 2 1/8" rip another mark may give me three 2 1/8" rips so on and so on. There are many marks on this scale board. The operater justs hold scale over the board to see what size of rips it will yield best . My suppliers have expensive computerized ripping equipment machines and they always promise high percentage yields if I pay them to rip for me I can beat their yield considerably, even enough to pay my labor and realize a profit.. Whats amazing is that they will send a print out listing yeild along with their rips, but scratch there head when I simply measure the cube of ripped lumber and compare it to amount of lumber billed for( before ripping) and show them they dint achieve the yield the computer print out says they did.

1/11/20       #20: Table saw vs. Straight line rip saw ...
David Waldmann Member

Website: vermonthardwoods.com

Before we had an SLR my partner and I would have contests at the jointer/table saw.

We DID have a power feed on the saw, and it would be cranked at the max 82 Feet Per Minute setting.

On typical jobs where we are ripping 2-4 pieces from one board, it was pretty equal overall. But we were both real go-getters - the TS had boards back-to-back at the 82 FPM and the jointer was humming, taking off up to 3/8" at a pass if that's what it took.

But an SLR totally changes the game! You can take off 3/4" or even more, in one pass! Our first SLR was a "twin rip". It was SLR in function, in that it pulled the board straight through with no fence, but it also had a second blade, that was adjustable by a hand crank, from (I don't recall the minimum - call it 1") up to 8". So the FIRST pass through got you one piece ripped to width, the second pass got you TWO pieces, straight AND ripped to width.

It was almost as revolutionary as the 4-sided moulder compared to a shaper.

Our current gang rip is an entry level Raimann that has an arbor with quick-adjust blade spacing. All you have to do is loosen the tension that holds the blades in place, move them to where you want them (we use wood spacer for quick and accurate sizes) and lock in place hydraulically with the turn of a knob. The arbor is about 13" and we have (6) sets of blade/collars. Depending on the job, we generally run 4-5 blades, which produces 3-4 pieces per board.

The moulder is great, but I think our gang rip may (generally) save us more labor compared to "traditional" equipment. If not, it's close.

1/17/20       #21: Table saw vs. Straight line rip saw ...
Bruce H

To address your original question. Yes, get a SLR. You will be amazed at what it can do as compared to a table saw. I rip everything on mine (two man shop) The safety factor is much greater than hand feeding a TS, even with a feeder.


Post a Response
  • Notify me of responses to this thread
  • Subscribe to email updates on this Forum
  • To receive email notification of additions to this forum thread,
    enter your name and email address, and then click the
    "Keep Me Posted" button below.

    Please Note: If you have posted a message or response,
    do not submit this request ... you are already signed up
    to receive notification!

    Your Name:
    E-Mail Address:
    Enter the correct numbers into the field below:
     

    Date of your Birth:



    Return to top of page

    Buy & Sell Exchanges | Forums | Galleries | Site Map

    FORUM GUIDELINES: Please review the guidelines below before posting at WOODWEB's Interactive Message Boards (return to top)

  • WOODWEB is a professional industrial woodworking site. Hobbyist and homeowner woodworking questions are inappropriate.
  • Messages should be kept reasonably short and on topic, relating to the focus of the forum. Responses should relate to the original question.
  • A valid email return address must be included with each message.
  • Advertising is inappropriate. The only exceptions are the Classified Ads Exchange, Machinery Exchange, Lumber Exchange, and Job Opportunities and Services Exchange. When posting listings in these areas, review the posting instructions carefully.
  • Subject lines may be edited for length and clarity.
  • "Cross posting" is not permitted. Choose the best forum for your question, and post your question at one forum only.
  • Messages requesting private responses will be removed - Forums are designed to provide information and assistance for all of our visitors. Private response requests are appropriate at WOODWEB's Exchanges and Job Opportunities and Services.
  • Messages that accuse businesses or individuals of alleged negative actions or behavior are inappropriate since WOODWEB is unable to verify or substantiate the claims.
  • Posts with the intent of soliciting answers to surveys are not appropriate. Contact WOODWEB for more information on initiating a survey.
  • Excessive forum participation by an individual upsets the balance of a healthy forum atmosphere. Individuals who excessively post responses containing marginal content will be considered repeat forum abusers.
  • Responses that initiate or support inappropriate and off-topic discussion of general politics detract from the professional woodworking focus of WOODWEB, and will be removed.
  • Participants are encouraged to use their real name when posting. Intentionally using another persons name is prohibited, and posts of this nature will be removed at WOODWEB's discretion.
  • Comments, questions, or criticisms regarding Forum policies should be directed to WOODWEB's Systems Administrator
    (return to top).

    Carefully review your message before clicking on the "Send Message" button - you will not be able to revise the message once it has been sent.

    You will be notified of responses to the message(s) you posted via email. Be sure to enter your email address correctly.

    WOODWEB's forums are a highly regarded resource for professional woodworkers. Messages and responses that are crafted in a professional and civil manner strengthen this resource. Messages that do not reflect a professional tone reduce the value of our forums.

    Messages are inappropriate when their content: is deemed libelous in nature or is based on rumor, fails to meet basic standards of decorum, contains blatant advertising or inappropriate emphasis on self promotion (return to top).

    Libel:   Posts which defame an individual or organization, or employ a tone which can be viewed as malicious in nature. Words, pictures, or cartoons which expose a person or organization to public hatred, shame, disgrace, or ridicule, or induce an ill opinion of a person or organization, are libelous.

    Improper Decorum:   Posts which are profane, inciting, disrespectful or uncivil in tone, or maliciously worded. This also includes the venting of unsubstantiated opinions. Such messages do little to illuminate a given topic, and often have the opposite effect. Constructive criticism is acceptable (return to top).

    Advertising:   The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not an advertising venue. Companies participating in a Forum discussion should provide specific answers to posted questions. WOODWEB suggests that businesses include an appropriately crafted signature in order to identify their company. A well meaning post that seems to be on-topic but contains a product reference may do your business more harm than good in the Forum environment. Forum users may perceive your references to specific products as unsolicited advertising (spam) and consciously avoid your web site or services. A well-crafted signature is an appropriate way to advertise your services that will not offend potential customers. Signatures should be limited to 4-6 lines, and may contain information that identifies the type of business you're in, your URL and email address (return to top).

    Repeated Forum Abuse: Forum participants who repeatedly fail to follow WOODWEB's Forum Guidelines may encounter difficulty when attempting to post messages.

    There are often situations when the original message asks for opinions: "What is the best widget for my type of shop?". To a certain extent, the person posting the message is responsible for including specific questions within the message. An open ended question (like the one above) invites responses that may read as sales pitches. WOODWEB suggests that companies responding to such a question provide detailed and substantive replies rather than responses that read as a one-sided product promotion. It has been WOODWEB's experience that substantive responses are held in higher regard by our readers (return to top).

    The staff of WOODWEB assume no responsibility for the accuracy, content, or outcome of any posting transmitted at WOODWEB's Message Boards. Participants should undertake the use of machinery, materials and methods discussed at WOODWEB's Message Boards after considerate evaluation, and at their own risk. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages it deems inappropriate. (return to top)


  • Forum Posting Help
    Your Name The name you enter in this field will be the name that appears with your post or response (return to form).
    Your Website Personal or business website links must point to the author's website. Inappropriate links will be removed without notice, and at WOODWEB's sole discretion. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    E-Mail Address Your e-mail address will not be publicly viewable. Forum participants will be able to contact you using a contact link (included with your post) that is substituted for your actual address. You must include a valid email address in this field. (return to form)
    Subject Subject may be edited for length and clarity. Subject lines should provide an indication of the content of your post. (return to form)
    Thread Related Link and Image Guidelines Thread Related Links posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should point to locations that provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related Link that directs visitors to an area with inappropriate content will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    Thread Related File Uploads Thread Related Files posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. Video Files: acceptable video formats are: .MOV .AVI .WMV .MPEG .MPG .MP4 (Image Upload Tips)   If you encounter any difficulty when uploading video files, E-mail WOODWEB for assistance. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related File that contains inappropriate content will be removed, and uploaded files that are not directly related to the message thread will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links, files, or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    Sponsors

    Become a Sponsor today!