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What's your preference for small molding runs?8/3
So I just landed a job running about 1000 lf of base and chair rail, including a small amount of curved stuff. Not an off-the-shelf profile and the bigger shops generally either don't want to bother with small quantities of curved, or charge a small fortune for it. So I'll be running it all in house. I briefly thought about whether it may be worth it to invest in a small molder....but then after reading some past threads in the knowledge base it turned me off them a bit. Of course they were more related to running a lot of molding.
So I get to my knife grinder and as we're talking about how I want to run the profiles he mentions I should get a W&H to make my life easier! He says many of the bigger shops run one for this type of work. I do agree that it would be easier for these profiles to run them flat against the bed. But again I go back to the posts here complaining about the speed, multiple passes, and quality of finish coming out of the W&H???
So I thought it might be worth asking the question again, but only as pertaining to small runs as opposed to thousands of feet a week. Most of my orders are very small quantities, say hundreds of feet at most, to match up with something existing. Are the small W&H style molders worth the investment? Is the quality going to be as good as running them through my shaper?
FWIW I'll be running the stock through my older Martin w/ a 7-1/2 hp motor...so the finish quality is almost good enough to go right to finishing....almost;>)
Been using the same W&H now for 2 decades. If you are use to going out and picking up molding at a supplier or molder then you will probably hate it. If you have some production machinery, typically a SLR saw then you won't mind it as much. The wood processing is what is the time consumer with using the W&H. If you can order the stock presized and just push it through the molder then that's even better
I run mine on slower speeds, I have the adjustable feed. I usually run it at 35% which is about 7 FPM. So a 16 footer takes 2 minutes. And that is starting to sound slow to me I don't think it takes that long. Top speed is 19 FPM and for smaller stuff <3 1/2" you can do it. Bigger stuff needs slower speeds.
It is not as chatter free and the big machines (think $60K vs $3K) so you have to hit it with sandpaper.
For curves you can't beat it. For small runs you can't beat it (<100' - 350') When you start talking 1000s of feet it could take a while.
It is nice to have any species molding available at will for your project. (assuming you use standard moldings for most things and have those standard knives on hand)
I wouldn't give mine up.
Have been using the W&H for years, with the variable speed option. NO chatter when set up properly (correct speed, proper tension on feed rollers and sled set snug). We've run literally tens of thousands of feet through this machine with zero issues. It is my "go to" molding machine - I prefer it to my Wadkins 10 hp shapers for ease of use, consistent results and wide assortment of cutting steel (I have hundreds of sets of cutters). Sure - it's a bit slower than the shapers, but easier to set up since we've constructed custom sleds for just about every operation. Whether I need a ten foot piece of "one off" molding for a china cabinet or 1,000' of crown - the W&H does the trick.
As mentioned - sizing the stock before running is a bit of labor - but since we have the dedicated sleds for each profile - that sled has stickers containing all the sizing info needed for jointing and ripping stock ahead of time - no fooling around and experimenting. Read the data, mill the stock and feed away!
Customers always pay the steel fee up front, no charge for repeat orders. So the initial cost is all you bear. Sharpening is prorated over the lineal feet of run.
Yea. If you want my advice - unless you are running molding 8 hours per day 5 days a week - the W&H will pay for itself real fast and you won't be looking back.
Ditto on curved molding - this machine will be your personal cash ATM machine from local contractors!
Not sure of the multiple pass statement - with the variable feed motor and the higher feed roller kit you can run an initial pass to "rough out" the stock, and then run a second pass to clean it up - but this is not usually necessary unless you are using a profile that is deep and removes a lot of material. We've found a single pass results in a much smoother finish as the infeed roller has full contact. Sometimes a second pass does not have sufficient roller contact (depending on the profile) to hold down tightly enough for a chatter free finish. This is where you may have to set up a custom sled to help hold the profile as it exits the cutters. An example would be a very wide casing that is much thicker on one side than the other. Your outfeed roller may only be contacting that heavier (higher) side leaving the thinner side to move a bit. With time you'll find these little tricks and be turning out spectacular moldings on par with any larger machine, albeit much slower. But it's a tradeoff - a couple thousand bucks initially for running maybe 3-4 thousand feet per year is well worth it in my book! Especially if you run a couple hundred feet at a clip. Not to mention how many times you may need a wood species that matches your project and it's just not available locally. Grab a piece of the stock used for your project, load the cutter and zippo! Matched molding with just a few minutes work!
Go for it! :)
I have had my W&H for 10 years and absolutely love it. I was going to type up my two cents but then I read ML's above and he sums it up for how I use my machine. Two key points: sharp knives and reduce vibration. My mouldings were starting to look a little shoddy a couple months ago and I took the time to go through the whole machine and cart. The CGG Schmidt cart I have needs some reinforcement in my opinion in it's motor mount. An improper belt will vibrate as well. Keep her tuned and knives sharp and you will NEVER regret the purchase.
Thanks for the responses guys...
Leo, I'm going to have material delivered surfaced and ripped to the width of the base. Then the other blanks will be ripped from that on the TS with a feeder. It's cheaper for me to order it in than to mill it myself, and unlike doors and such, having perfectly straight stock is not an issue;>) I'm not overly concerned about the speed as I can only feed my shaper so fast when working alone anyway. I'm more concerned with possibly having to make multiple passes! I guess my biggest concern is surface quality. Moldings coming out of my shaper are pretty clean and usually only need a couple swipes with sandpaper. Since sanding is generally the biggest bottleneck it's something I want to avoid as much as possible!
ML and Joe, you guys seem to be much happier with your machines than many of the posts I had read previously. I'm thinking that there's a real divide based on quantity of molding one is running? I honestly don't see myself ever getting into running thousands of bd. ft. of anything, just too much competition in this area. So at this point in time there is zero chance I'll be looking into molders. Even if I got one for free it wouldn't get enough use to justify the space and resources it would require!
As far as multiple passes go....are you guys running much in the way of denser woods like oak and maple? I would like to avoid multiple passes as much as possible! Again all I have to go on is old threads in the knowledge base so I'm trying to get as clear a picture on the finish quality as I can before plunking down cash.
ML, you mention you prefer it to your Wadkin shapers, (which I'm sure run pretty nice), Is the finish comparable? I guess this is probably my biggest hangup since I don't know anyone locally that I could see it for myself. I know the stuff coming off my shaper is really clean....if I spend money, (which has been really tight lately), I'd like to end up with a product comparable if possible. If not than I'd keep rolling with the shaper.
Jeff, I'd say that my results with the W&H are comparable, or even better than the Wadkins shaper. Most of my shaper cutters are carbide insert tooling, where the W&H is HS Steel. HS steel in some cases does cut cleaner than carbide, but you'd be hard pressed to see the difference in our moldings. The advantage of the shaper is faster feed rates are possible - think TEN horsepower vs TWO horsepower. And also the higher rotational speed of the cutters on the shaper. But not to take away from the variable speed on the Hussey - it works well at top speed on softer woods and straight grain. We do run a lot of cherry (twisted grain) through the W&H with great results - albeit slowing down the feed rate. Again - we rarely run multiple passes. If we have a run with a profile removing a lot of material - we may often hog that out first on the ts.
Sanding afterward? Not necessary on the W&H! If anything - you may need to knock down the ultra smooth finish so that the scratch pattern matches the rest of your case work.. ;)
I have to say - I held off purchasing our Hussey for years - mostly thinking it would only be good for curved work since our shapers did just fine on straight runs. But when I bought my new building, a small shop adjacent ours had the Hussey and I got to see weekly how convenient it was to have one of these small molders. Within two years my cutter inventory was in the hundreds! Almost daily we find a use for this great little machine - I would never be without one again! I often think of buying another - but at 61 years old and retirement approaching (what - are you kidding?) I think twice about machinery purchases...
Believe me - if you can pick one up - do so by all means! Not sure where you heard negative feedback on the W&H - but wherever I go and whomever I speak with firsthand that has one - they are SOLD on it! I meet peers at conventions, wood shows, guild meetings, etc. and have yet to hear a shop speak ill of theirs. No - you obviously can't compare it to a Weinig or such - but then again - we are only talking 2 g's here. You will have that back in your pocket by the 3-4th month you use it (depending on the volume of use). Ours was paid for by the third job. Okay - I may have gotten lucky - we landed a contract for 250 curved casing heads for a condo complex - six inches wide with a 32" radius. MDF paintgrade which we primed. We used the double refined - no sanding prior to priming and it looked golden! We did use our Onsrud inverted router to rough out the blanks and the job was lucrative.. I've never looked back! Every day or so we are running a five foot piece, maybe two twelve foot pieces - something, always something that we need for our meat & potatoes - wall units! It is rare that we ever buy molding outsource. It's great to offer profiles that are unique - clients just eat that stuff up!
Beaded frame moldings are run quite often on our machine - I had two cutters made up - each with a different radius bead each end (see attached photos). So, I paid for two cutters and got four profiles. We do a lot of beaded inset door framing so this works out great for us. This is where clean, chatter free cuts are vital - those small 3/32" radius beads do NOT want to require hand sanding afterward! Notice also that my cutters pictured have the corrugated backs to them. I've had most of my W&H cutters run with corrugated stock so that I can also mount these on our Schmidt head (they manufacture a head specifically for use with W&H or Shopfox cutters) and run those same cutters on our shapers. Not because shapers cut better - but so that we can run bowed face moldings for radius countertop edge work. As opposed to the curved plane the W&H offers. So - you have the best of both worlds!
Dense woods? No problem! Not even birds eye maple, or crotch cuts are an issue when you have the variable feed!
And having the option of doing curved and radius work is the true golden egg. Contractors will flock to your door for their custom radius work! Sure - big shops with CNC can do this - but the cost is just too much for the small contractor to pay for small jobs. Which is when the W&H shines! That small round door head I attached in my first post - we ran 46 of those - they adorned the top of every passage door in a house (two per door) and that alone almost would have paid for another machine. Trust me - you should seriously look into one of these. Don't feel you need to run thousands of feet of molding to justify the expense - small runs are the cash cows. Especially in profiles that the big boys don't offer. We never throw out small rippings in my shop - any strips, down to just 1/2" x 1/2" are turned into panel moldings, beadings, shoe moldings, etc.. When one of my guys has idle time (yea, right) - I turn him onto the W&H and have him convert all those rippings (that would normally be tossed) into viable moldings that are stored for jobs down the road.
Okay, running on too much here - but that's because I just love my W&H machine! :)
For 200' or less, I would definitely use the W&H. For 1000', I would order it. You didn't say what the material was. 1000' of white oak would really put the wear on steel knives in the W&H.
ML, thanks for such great feedback! I feel a bit better about the potential for adding one of these machines to my shop.
Most of the negative feedback, (all found here in the knowledge base), was I believe from guys running a lot more molding than I need to. I agree that you can't compare it to a $30k plus molder and I think that's what was happening?
I'm curious about your knives! So your running a stock W&H head, but just having the profiles ground in corrugated and then having the holes custom bored as well? That's very appealing to me as it would offer far greater flexibility and I was not aware that was a possibility!
One last question, (at least for now;>)), you mentioned using sleds in your first response. Are they necessary to get the nice clean finish? Or are they just to make setups quicker and easier? I figure most of my stuff is going to be one-off's.
thanks again for taking the time!!!
Rich, it's going to be red oak, but this is just one job so I'm looking at the potential benefit down the road, not just on this job. I don't think I'll be buying the machine for this job anyway. I just won't have the time to get one in, setup, and turning out molding in the time I have to run this job through. I'm looking ahead to the next job so I can be ready:>)
It's 1000 lf but that's split between a flat base, (no profile), a base cap, and a chair rail....so much smaller amounts will be going through each set of knives.
I can always order moldings, it's the curved stuff where things get costly quick! The bigger shops I'd buy from charge a real premium for custom curves, which I can knock out fairly quickly and make decent cash on. But if your running the curves that means running the straight stuff as well!
Jeff - my corrugated knives come from knife stock that is prebored on the 1" centers - specifically for these knives. It comes in up to 2-1/2" width by 25" lengths - most knife services carry this. No need to have custom holes bored..
The sleds are to make repeat runs a cakewalk. Every sled has a sticker attached with the pertinent information printed (width and thickness of stock prior to molding run, which cutter knife to use, the height adjustment reading for the molding machine, feed speeds, etc.). All sleds are built to butt up against the two tubular shafts on the molder, so referencing setups for the knives with the sled are taken out of the equation (after the first initial run).This makes life so much simpler for repeat setups. Like anything else - once you do something once - repeat runs are more accurate and result in consecutive moldings being exactly the same as your initial pieces. Ever run a Martin shaper? You set the parameters on the screen, and everything moves automatically into place (height, speed, depth of cut, etc.). Well - this is my "caveman" way of duplicating those setups, and pretty close to the thousandths of an inch that the Martin produces! Hee hee. But always the same - which is what we are looking for.
Yes - 1000's of feet of red oak will dull your knives - but if you run a diamond hone across them every 300' or so you can achieve 1000 feet without sharpening. Speed plays a larger role than does the species of wood. Too slow results in burning, which overheats the knife and dulls quickly. Too quickly with your speed and you will get tearout and chatter. Experience using them teaches you the best "medium" for each run. A wide knife removing a lot of material (again - think "hogging" out rough stock prior to molding run) will dull your knives - removing less material extends the life of the blade. But you have to keep in mind when pricing these jobs - dull knives are part of the equation - so you build in the cost of sharpening. If you have a large run that you don't wish to outsource (keeping your men busy rather than paying a larger shop) then by all means - do it yourself! Sure, it'll take longer, dull your knives and consume a lot of time. But guess what - better than standing at the door watching the Brinks truck drive by carrying your outsource shop's money to his bank...
No, I'm not saying go into the molding business with your machine - definitely you will not be able to compete with the big boys. But small runs, curved or radius work and the ability to turn around a small order quickly will have contractors knocking at your door. And even if they don't - if you are busy enough you'll find many uses for this machine to keep yourself busy rather than an outsource shop. Always a tradeoff. Me - I'm more inclined to do as much as I can myself rather than outsource. You always lose if it comes down to best price. But you can offer quality, quick turnaround and the option of small runs in any species in a schedule that works to your advantage. That's the asset of owning a W&H machine. Yea, $2k is a bit of an investment, but small in terms of return on your dollar. Especially when you factor in the advantages it affords your shop vs the shop down the street without the capability to run perfect moldings, radius work and quick turnarounds.
Hmmm, think I'll hit up W&H for a commission here.. LOL
I'd like to add an important point - when ordering your cutters - be sure to specify "M2 High Speed Steel". This will ensure you have the best quality to guarantee longevity of sharpness. The slightly higher cost for the M2 is well worth the better grade. And be sure to acquire from a knife shop that is familiar with the angles and size requirements for producing W&H cutters. They will ask you what species of wood you mostly use for a particular cutter - and grind the proper relief angle so as to give you the best compromise between as sharp as possible and still retain a cutting edge the longest. I can say that WM Moore does an excellent job on ours.
Thanks ML, you've given me a lot of great info that's shed some light on the W&H machines!
I really like the sled concept, not sure how many times I'll be doing repeat moldings but it may be worth keeping a sled anyway! Oh and I run Martin shapers all the time....however the youngest one was made in 81' so I'm still setting everything manually;>)
I don't see myself running many large jobs. The run I'm working on now is over a thousand feet of molding. However it's broken into smaller lots....so something like 400 lf of base, 400 lf of chair rail etc. etc.. No large amount of stock going through any one set of knives.
It seems we think alike on many points. I do think the addition of the W&H could really increase my flexibility, and I always like to do as much in house as is profitable. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't going to spend a bunch of cash on something that wasn't going to perform. I feel a lot better about investing in one now then I did a couple days ago!
Oh and I have a pretty good shop for knives not too far from me. They're good guys to deal with and I always defer to their experience for my corrugated profiles. They're the ones who recommended I look into the W&H for some of the stuff I'm running.
I just wanted to comment you guys on an outstanding post. It's posts like these that keep me coming back to the forum.
I don't own a W&H, so I cannot comment on it's ability, but I do own a Woodmaster. They, also, have been criticized in the past. It takes a little tweaking and some thought, but they can turn out sandpaper free molding as well.
I'm not here to pump the Woodmaster, I just wanted to say that having the ability to do your own molding can make or break jobs. It's another asset to give you a leg up on the competition and hopefully make your wallet a little fatter.
These small molders can really make some good product, it just takes a little more time and effort. Once you have the knack of running one, you will obviously be in love with it.
Good luck and go buy your new molder.
Boardmaker nailed it in a nutshell! Regardless of the brand (Shop Fox, W&H, Woodmaster, etc.) any one of these machines can turn out great results. It's just a matter of learning your particular machine and using it. I wish I had posts such as these (and all the other wealth of info here on woodweb) back when I toyed with the idea of purchasing my machine. I tossed it around for two years until seeing my buddy next door and the potential it offered him.
Woodboarders words "make or break jobs" is the bottom line. Today I feel a small molder is not an option in today's small shop - but rather a necessity.. :)
A little bit of an add-on to this thread, We have a W&H in the shop as well and use it all the time. I have never upgraded to the variable speed and have never felt the need probably because we dont often run deep profiles with a lot of material being removed but this thread has got me wondering if its something I should seriously look into. Any thoughts?
As an aside to all the great info already here, I often find myself running the W&H in conjunction with the shaper perhaps for relieving the back or another operation that would require a separate setup. Its nice when working alone to be able to run straight off one machine and right through another. It can get a little bottle necked but its a real production boost for my small shop.
There are two sides to the thought process here. Those that like to do every thing at any cost, those purely interested in the bottom line. I have no problem with either thought process.
First off a 1000 ft order is not a small order for any millwork shop. Bottom line is if you want to basically pay twice what it's worth feed it through a WH. They are awesome little machines, but if you are interested in basically turning the job profitably have it ran on a real moulder. If you just like doing that kind of thing well have at it, but don't discount the fact your time, labor, and overhead cost, and I promise, the novelty wears off real quick of "making" your own moulding. I always get a kick out of the shaper guys who think they are banking money doing it in house, if you have nothing else going on great, but don't kid yourself, you are not saving money.
For the WH lovers relax, I have one and have had it for thirty years and they can and have done amazing things, but they are not as consistent and the finish is not as nice as what comes off a moulder variable speed or not. I own three moulders and do this everyday so I can speak from experience.
That all being said, I would buy a WH for the odd funky jobs, straight or radii, raising real wide panel profiles, or anything else you can dream up and still be safe. Better yet buy a Mikron, runs straight, radius and uses standard corrugated steel but they are more money. Sorry for being blunt.
For the little bit of access to custom runs the upcharge and setup make the mere option of doing something odd or unique a non-starter for my customers and its not that the shops costs are so high, its because many large operations are simply not interested in three or four hundred feet of custom so they price it out of existence. The job Jeff is talking about is 1000' total broken up into smaller lots. Its not a 1000' run of a single profile. I would guess I would have a hard time even getting a return phone call from any shop within 75 miles for an order like that and the price would choke a mule.
I have never doubted that when you add up all the nickles and dimes anything over a couple hundred feet gets sketchy but that said, for me at least I simply dont have access to outsource locally.
JL, I think you missed the point of the OP's original question. This thread is not about how well the W&H stacks up to a Weinig (gasp) but is the cost of one of these small molders worth the investment. Obviously he's on a tight budget, actually this particular run will be done with present equipment (per his words). We are all merely trying to answer his question and yes - a W&H is well worth the investment. I think it goes without saying that a "real" molder is quite capable of producing large runs of molding at a profit. But in today's economy - laying out the cash for a big molder is a very LARGE commitment that bears a lot more thought and research than what we are discussing here. Kudos to the shop that can afford to buy one at this time and have the ability, resources and clients to warrant the high price. But as we have all agreed on - competition for moldings on a large scale today is tough! My local lumber yard is selling moldings for little more than my board footage costs! If you have 3 running every day - you obviously are in an extremely rare climate - I know here in the Northeast most mills are languishing with skeleton crews and tons of idle machinery.
Yes - it does come down to your costs. In my case - my overhead is extremely low. I own my own 4,200 sq. ft. building - and everything in it is mine. I've never leased nor paid on time for anything in my shop. If it comes through my door - I own it. So, other than utility costs and insurance - I can easily produce product off my W&H at a decent profit. Were we discussing this subject 5 or more years prior to present day - I'd agree with you in a heartbeat to spend the bucks on a US Concepts or Mikron (both do radius work). But that was yesterday and yesterday's gone (isn't that part of a song?) and today it's a whole new game. My area (25 mile radius) has seen more than 35 shops and mills close their doors in the past couple of years. And more about to do the same. It comes down to having more overhead than you can carry given your income. Can we all agree it's almost impossible to attract more customers today (who's got money to spend?) so next you have to make the moves to keep overhead down. The shops still running profitably today are those that chose machinery purchases wisely in past years. Sadly - most of the shops I've seen close around here are those that had high rent, large machinery monthly leases coupled with a labor force that was out of hand.
Jeff has a genuine concern here. He's asking an intelligent question showing conservative realism before dropping his dime on a purchase that years ago would not have been a second thought. But yes, today a couple thousand dollars + is a large enough investment that it bears scrutiny and zealous research.
While I would never urge nor attempt to persuade any shop today to invest tens of thousands in large equipment - my points on the W&H I feel are warranted and as such would be a wise expenditure for any small to medium shop today that does not have one of these type machines. With the struggles to cope in today's venue - it makes sense to "spend money to make money". But with reservations - knowing how many mills are still producing and selling at bottom line prices - unless you are in a lucrative market area you'd be hard pressed to realize a profit laying out those high bucks. But the small molders are a completely different animal. Given the versatility and countless profiles this machine can produce - it can very well be the difference between signing a job (thanks - boardmaker!) and losing to the guy across the street who does own one.
Last point - as stated - these machine can and do produce a finish cut as good as any large molder. It just takes a bit more tinkering and finesse. Consistent results can be achieved with a careful eye on the ball (maintaining tight sleds, sharp tooling and proper speeds) and I'm stating this from experience since I do this every year with my machine. Mark - you ask a good question on the merits of upgrading to variable speed. I can only answer this - simply stated it gives you a much better finish. You set the speed to the type of wood and profile. One speed is a compromise and cannot give you the best cut possible. There are actually a couple of advantages you gain with the VS. Aside from ensuring quality cuts on even the most gnarly grained woods - it also increases the hp to your cutter head. Why? Because with the VS you have two motors - one driving your cutter and one driving your feed rollers! Great! Cheap way to gain hp! Another advantage is when doing radius work with a closed loop (spelled mirror frames, etc.). Here you can leave the feed motor off and slowly lower the rotating cutter head into your work. Then turn on the VS and slowly bring it up to the speed you need to make run the profile. You cannot do this safely with the single speed. Last - you can help prolong the cutting edges on your knives by starting out feeding very slowly on straight runs, once a couple inches into your cuts then bring it up to speed. This reduces that huge load put on the cutters by contacting the full load at once. You will be easing your wood into the cutter gradually. A tip here - when feeding multiple lengths of wood - always butt the consecutive pieces to the end of the previous piece. That also keeps the heavy initial contact load off the cutters as well as reducing the chance of snipe.
Jeff - you have a Martin shaper - so you know a bit about quality! Don't sell the W&H short - it is a quality machine. I've met and spoken many times with the boys at W&H - they attend most of the shows I frequent and I have had many a pleasant and rewarding conversation with them - I actually purchased my machine at one of their shows (MidAtlantic Woodworking Show - now defunct thank you economy). I ordered the variable speed kit within a couple months of buying and have not looked back. Jeff - YES! You will be justified buying one, it does all that you will require and to your pleasant surprise it is up to snuff! It will be a profitable addition to your shaper(s). Trust me and the thousands who also own theirs. So, unless you wish to drop your dime (spelled tens and tens of thousands) on a large molder and gamble on your return - I'd say go with the safe bet and buy W&H.
Cautionary note on point in my previous post - when running a closed loop frame, I mentioned lowering the cutterhead into the workpiece prior to turning on the VS. I should have mentioned that you need to apply a couple of clamps holding the work piece until the feed rollers (not turning) are in full contact with the wood. Then you release the clamps and turn on the VS. Vital missing piece of info!
JL - just now noticed your last statement about being blunt. That's how these forums should be - all of us can learn and appreciate your advice and being upfront with everything makes it that much more valuable to digest! Especially the "funky" part! :)
JL, I appreciate all types of advice as that's why these forums are here;>)
ML already hit on many of the points I will, but just to clarify my situation. Yes the order is over 1000 lf of molding. But that's broken down into roughly 450lf of base, 450 lf of cap, and 400+ lf of chair rail. And the clincher is a curved window casing. There are plenty of molding shops around me that can run large jobs for cheaper than I could buy the materials and knives for! However smaller orders have such a steep setup I can be competitive. Plus many of the larger shops either won't take curved jobs, or charge a small fortune for them as they're not setup to do them. As a small shop I have more flexibility to make what needs to be made. I do have another small shop with a molder nearby that runs stuff for me when I need it though....(well I think he's still there, was down to his last employee last time I was there)!
Yes it's been a slow summer and so that's another reason I'm glad to take it on. But I have run smaller molding jobs before this....usually under 200 lf. jobs, and yes you can make money if you charge accordingly. I simply charge my shop rate and if they want it great. The restoration business while slow, is still active in my area....and likely always will be!
Also FWIW I'm not completely in the dark, I have run....well OK, fed is more appropriate;>), a large Wadkin 5 head molder, so I'm a bit familiar with the product they can produce. I really have no need for a big molder for what I produce nor do I have the space, power, or budget for one. As wonderful as they are for knocking out large runs of material, I would argue they are not that practical for small runs of a couple hundred feet or less. And the Mikron machines while smaller, still carry a sizable price tag! I wouldn't mind having one, but I just don't have enough work to justify that kind of purchase. On the other hand my shapers get used constantly which is why I've upgraded to the best I could find/afford, but as mentioned previously, may not be the ideal way to run certain things.
ML really hit the nail on the head. Up until about 4 years ago a $2k purchase would have been an easy decision. However this has been the slowest summer in my short 10 years in business. I've had several weeks where it was all I could do to put gas in the truck! Luckily the phone started ringing again about 2 weeks ago and it looks like it's going to be a very busy fall! So while I don't foresee expanding into the molding market.....I still wanted to get a feel for the potential usefulness of a small molder. And luckily I've gotten some great feedback to help me from some very generous guys!!!
thanks again to everyone!!!
Jeff's post stated that "big" shops are not interested or charge a fortune. The point I was trying to make is that while small run charges seem high the labor to run his 1000ft of mixed mouldings done on a WH will far exceed those cost. I was not trying to dissuade him from buying a new tool, everyone likes that, just be realistic. If you have a house full of cabinets to build and finish, order your mouldings and meet up in the spray booth. If you want to make mouldings to make them the WH is great. I would use the WH way before a shaper.
As far as what level of investment you are willing to make or what aspirations you have for your business will determine what risk you will incur. For me, the WH thing was literally good for a couple months before I bought a moulder and profile grinder, an old one, but a moulder none the less. The Hussey was painfully slow and quite frankly I wanted more, more capacity, more work, more money. I guess that's just me. I notice Jeff bought a Martin shaper where as a Grizzly would have been much more affordable. Which do you think would have/has made him more money, even in tough times? I own a Mikron also and the only time the WH is ever used is real tight radius work where the small cutting circle is advantageous.
I also have a hard time believing that millwork shops are unwilling to quote small runs, especially these days. We run everything from 10' to 10,000' and gladly take them all, always have. If you won't do the small ones you won't get the big ones!
Jeff, we posted at the same time. Unfortunately you don't see used WH or Mikron for sale very often. I don't know the routine now, but it was machine stand and motor all separate when I bought. However, look real hard at them as opposed to the imports, there are tons of them out there every bit as old as mine and still running great! A testament to there quality.
JL, I actually bought the Martin's for less than what a new Grizzly would cost! I learned long ago that patience and doing one's homework is the best way for me to equip my shop with machinery I couldn't otherwise afford;>) However buying the best used equipment I can afford has also given me quite a bit of skepticism towards smaller machines like the W&H....hence my starting this thread.
I know everyone does things a bit differently. In my shop I do mostly one-off's, very rarely production runs. I run small moldings for projects on the shaper all the time, much of it done with a Euro block. A lot of stuff I run would never even justify paying to have knives ground. I'll just use a couple different knives and/or grind the profile myself on the bench grinder. For example I just finished a furniture style vanity in cherry. 6' of custom base, 2 custom fluted profiles on either end with custom shaped appliqués. Some jobs/clients you can get away with just sticking catalog parts together....others require a bit more dedication. For you a molder made sense, for me it doesn't for the very reason you quoted....it's better and more profitable to have someone else do them;>)
Here's the real logic that prevents me from going down the molder road. I'm lucky enough to be in an area that allows us to charge higher prices than much of the country, making my small molding runs profitable. As a consequence space is also significantly more expensive! So even if I could get a molder for free, and have the utility upgrade my 100 amp 3 phase panel to a larger one for free, and get all the ductwork and electrical connections for free.....I'd still have to double my rent to double the size of my shop to fit the molder and have space around it to run 16' lengths....and it would still be tight! So now I have to compete with the other molding suppliers to pay for that extra space every month.....( you see why this is just not a good decision for me right?) Of course nothing is free! So realistically I'd probably have to drop close to $30k just to get a half decent used molder, and knife grinder installed and setup, plus the extra rent! Now I have to market like heck in a relatively crap economy, hire guys to run the machine, bring in a SLR requiring more space.....yup....a little W&H sounds a lot more doable!
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the perspective you bring to the table. If my situation was different and I worked in the sticks where I could get 5k+ sq. ft. for next to nothing, and I didn't have a LOT of competition, it may make sense. But being within 20 min from a major East coast city means you have to choose your machinery wisely.
I do think I'm going to end up picking up a small molder at some point in the near future. I don't think I'll use it more than a dozen times a year, but having it will certainly make some jobs easier. And I agree about avoiding the Asian knock-off's. I don't feel they ever really save you money;>)
Good info here thanks guys.
Anyone have any thoughts on the ShopFox W1812 Moulder? I think they used to have the same design as the W&H but looks like they might have discontinued that and this new moulder looks to have nice bed and guides. I have been wanting to bite the bullet one one of these little bad boys as well.
Isn't ShopFox Chinese? NUF said!
I thought the W&H was Taiwan too...sure looked like a Taiwan machine with an American sticker on it. I have use an older W&H from before the variable speed was available and it leaked oil like a siv...real nice quality huh? The tables on the new Shop Fox look much nicer then the W&H with the cheesy rollers and i just wanted to know what you guys thought. I normally buy all my moulding but sometimes it is a long wait or they will not run walnut until their chip bin is empty. I cant believe they offered these without variable speed as i think the vs is absolutely necessary.
I used mine for a decade before I added the variable speed setup. That's what the multipass setup was for.
The W&H is 100% USA! No China or Taiwan with their units.. They have a strong belief in staying USA and have proved that they can compete with offshore manufacturing.
By the way - with VS there is no problems with oil leaks since the oil bath was eliminated. So, don't fret - this is NOT a Harley Davidson! ;)
ShopFox is made in China. Looks are deceiving - don't fret about a longer table. I don't even utilize the rollers on my W&H - no need for them at all. There is enough weight to the machine, which, combined with the excellent roller system that you have no need for any more length to the tables. Compare this with a good, heavy planer that has short infeed/outfeed tables. The weight and roller system dictate the lack of need for length on both.
Not to say you want to just throw in 16' lengths and walk away. But another few inches on the table have no effect on any work beyond a few feet outboard of the machine anyway!
I'll reiterate once more - hundreds of thousands of satisfied W&H users for over 50 years now. And the machines hold resale unbelievably high! There's a good reason for that. Try getting even 50% back on your China products after a year. If they even hold up that long with poor castings, deplorable electrics, dismal and "overstated" motor sizes and bearings that disintegrate very quickly. By the way - Taiwan vintage is far superior to "China made"... Though with W&H we are talking Stateside manufacturing only.
in the mill shop i run i use a scm t50 shaper, 3 - 3hp delta knock offs , shop fox 1812, a mikron 652 , and a northtech 6 head moulder daily. my crew of three produce a mixed bag of 1000 to 1500 feet a day of straight radiused mouldings and s4s to supply a dozen cabinetmakers and installers in house. all are good machines if set up properly . the w & h and the shopfox are work horses and simple to set up and maintain. straight or curved. as a shaper man for 30 years i personally prefer the t50 for ease of set up and quality of cut and speed. but each machine has unique advantages. i find myself using the mikron for short ( under 100 feet ) runs of crown because i'm too lazy to switch the feed from vertical to horizontal on the shaper. another advantage of the mikron no one has mentioned is the variable height adjustment of feed rollers independent of the head. i can adjust to give just the right amount of pressure on an inside or outside radius form ( picture going from floor up and over machine or in air going down to machine and back up in the air again) then take jig out and use for holding molding in right plane for cutting mitres on chop saw. the quality of the material coming off the mikron is equal to the shaper or the 6 head molder . i think if i had corrugated knives already and was planning on a business model of 1000 feet a week straight and radiused i would consider a mikron 645 or 652 used machines can be found for 5-15,000 $.
If any of you are interested I have now a Williams & Hussey moulder listed for sale on the Woodweb machinery exchange.
If you don't have the space or $ for a real molder you might consider a used Stegherr or US Concepts, or even a Micron. They are arched molding shapers, NOT molders. All have much greater capabilities, better feed systems, more power and you can use the same heads on them as on your shapers. The heads will take regular molder steel so If you ever do get a real molder your investment in knives is still good. You can also save the time and expense of making sleds, and carrier boards. I bought a used Stegherr @ auction for $2000. There is no change over time between different radii or straight. It tracks what ever you put in. With 5hp and variable feed there are no multiple pass issues.