Message Thread:
Making large paint grade doors
2/18/22
Hi guys. I'm a furniture, cabinet maker full time, yet always come across odd jobs that I question after taking. Like this. Built in painted cabinet closet. And they want to make two large 6' x 30" doors on a budget. If I made these out of 3/4 mdf and gled on 3/4 mdf fake stile and rails to appear like a fancy door. Leaving the back flat. You think the painted mdf would warp? Or would you use the procore with mdf and veneer? Little worried about cupping once I glue pieces on. Any thoughts are much appreciated.
Thanks,
Chad
2/19/22 #2: Making large paint grade doors ...
If your worried about cupping maybe use 1/4" MDF and apply your faux rails to both sides to keep it balanced if your shooting for 3/4" thick or whatever thickness combinations get you to the finished thickness your shooting for?
2/19/22 #3: Making large paint grade doors ...
Sorry, missed the 2 layers of 3/4". You could still balance your budget door with 1/2" material and 1/2" faux rails/stiles both sides. Sounds pretty heavy.
2/19/22 #4: Making large paint grade doors ...
For paint grade why not use poplar or soft maple, basic 5 piece door. By the time you get done sealing the mdf edges to get a decent surface to paint you'd make up for it with solid wood. The panel could be anything that's smooth for paint, mdf maple ply, etc. Not to mention the weight savings.
2/22/22 #5: Making large paint grade doors ...
Website: http://www.acornwoodworks.com
Why even consider MDF? The stuff smells bad, is too heavy, is not wood, trashes your shop, detracts from the desirability of your product, and demeans you as a tradesman.
The subject here is woodworking, and it is assumed we are all woodworkers. So, let's work wood. Not industrial garbage.
There is plenty of info on how to build wood doors successfully. I would use soft Maple for this project.
2/22/22 #6: Making large paint grade doors ...
Thanks for the rersponses on this. After searching online and getting ieas from you guys I understand the possible problems with these doors and warp issues. I'll pass along the upgrade price of making real wood stile and rail doors and mdf panel to the customer and see what flies. As a woodworker I enjoy my mortise and tenon joints and carving but know there's a place for paint grade mdf and pocket screw jobs. Which lately is what keeps the lights on. As long as I'm making things I'm usually pretty happy. Good luck out there yall!
2/22/22 #7: Making large paint grade doors ...
You mentioned they are on a budget. If their budget does not allow for fine craftsmanship then mdf all the way. We have made 100s or maybe even a couple thousand paint grade cabinet doors on the cnc out of this "industrial garbage" and our customers love them. We give them the option of 5 piece or solid mdf and they almost always go with mdf. No call backs.
2/22/22 #8: Making large paint grade doors ...
No to take both sides of this but I would venture to guess in years to come we are going to see the same nightmares from MDF that we did in the 80's/90's with "particle board junk". The core is only as durable as the finish applied and the use/care it sees from the end user.
The instant the finish is compromised MDF is no different, perhaps worse, that particle board.
The difference today as compared to the 80's/90's is the big boxes and the internet have changed the consumers mindset to disposable, and constant upgrade for fashion. So when they buy a dog-sh)t MDF door (cabinet or otherwise) and it falls apart in 5-8-10 years, the are ready for a change anyway so it is what it is. Its like throwing away your entire faucet because it drips. Or throwing your dishwasher out to the end of the driveway for scrap because a little plastic clip broke.
The issue to me from an individual like Chad is how do you pitch that dog-sh(t level of work (no offense Chad) and not have the consumer come back on you even though they said they were ok with cheap.
You just have to make it clear in evey way, six ways to Sunday, what they are asking for and telling you to proceed with.
Broken record here with David that it'd be nice if we were all in a positon refuse in principal MDF. Im lucky to use the material only for spoil boards on the CNC. That said it could change in an instant that I need to chase those dollars.
The real problem is consumers will buy an ultra dog-sh)t MDF product from the home center and chaulk it up to "we knew we were buying cheap". They can buy the exact same dog-sh(t from a "cabinet maker", that last twice as long as the home center, but when it fails they will ride the small shop down to the end of the world that "well... we did say cheap but we didnt mean THAT cheap".
There is no good answer. If I were to lock into Davids philosophy I'd be more broke than I am right now. If I went down the MDF hell hole I'm sure I'd have a bunch of customers riding me down for crap doors and I'd be trying to explain to them that when you beat the crap out of your powdered wood cabs they just wont last.
Take your pick
2/22/22 #9: Making large paint grade doors ...
Website: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-Jd2mra1bOlY3127...
I remember a few years ago I sprayed MDF doors interior for a contractor . When I delivered The doors had to lay flat because they would warp leaning on a wall, So they laid them flat and all the doors stuck together because I used latex black. I couldn't believe how cheap the doors were .
So spray again and had to time them so the contractor could hang them almost right away how much did I make ?
When you go that road to pay your bills there is no money for mistakes and they will happen.
2/23/22 #10: Making large paint grade doors ...
Website: http://www.acornwoodworks.com
Regarding the use of MDF:
If you go to MDF because your customer says they are on a budget, you have just lost control of your business. YOU do what YOU do because it is what YOU know how to do. I want a Ferrari, but I'm on a budget. Is it the Ferrari dealer's job to give up his commission so I can 'stay within budget"? Maybe I'll offer him cash for the car at the price I want to pay. Or I can start complimenting him on his suit, and sales demeanor. It is your business. Sort out what what you want to do from what others would have you do, and stick with your business, your work, your way.
Once you drop down to your knees and work with MDF, you will be known as someone that can be coerced in to doing that kind of work. Get comfortable, because you may never get out of that rut. Working cheap and cutting up MDF will classify you in the buying public's mind as a maker that.....will work cheap and cut up MDF. You will get inundated with with quote requests as the 'shoppers' try forever to save a buck or two wherever they can. "Can you make stairs out of MDF? You can! How much for an average stair package? In MDF?" You will grow to hate the phone as all it brings is more of the same. No one will ask you to build a $20,000 entry door because 1. they don't see that as something you build, and 2. they don't want MDF. If it is MDF that has been paying the bills, get used to it, because that is about all you will see.
Lately, there has been a huge amount of 'warp fear' here on the ol' Web. It is as if every piece of solid wood - glued or not - is going to warp, bow, twist and cup as soon as we incorporate it into a project. This is used as a reason to go to what I termed as "industrial garbage" and make some curb furniture - furniture that ends up on the curb in short order. In over 50 years of making things out of solid wood, I have had about 5 doors come back for warp. About a thousand to one. Those are great odds.
For years I have said "Respect yourself and your craft" Seek out the highest form of work, educate yourself and make a better living. Heck, I even wrote a book to help shops adopt a new product line so they do not have do down the MDF hell hole and make that obnoxious dust. Imagine you doing thew work you want to do, then work towards that. Someone has to do it - why not you? If you cut up MDF all the time, then you become your own worst enemy.
2/23/22 #11: Making large paint grade doors ...
I actually use solid wood most of the time. Especially in my furniture.The occasional painted kitchen where the doors have 1/4 floating mdf panels happens, but this was an odd job. Luckily it's not my normal thing.
Yet with every painted kitchen out there, it seems all the big cabinet shops can't get enough it. But on the other side the high end furniture market that's all fancy veneers is pretty much all layed up on garbage particle board. Not much better really.
2/24/22 #12: Making large paint grade doors ...
Website: http://www.cougilldiversified.com
David,
I really appreciate your perspective. Is there a place for value engineering a project to meet the clients needs and prioritize the finishes they really care most about? This is still a customer service business and I wonder sometimes if much of what we insist on in traditional cabinetmaking is just showing off for each other, not always serving the client.
I find I’m nearly always having to abandon frame and panel carcasses and opt for plywood instead. Or sometimes we’ll drop down to an anemic 3/4” door rather than 1-1/8”. But, in doing so, there’s room in the budget for a 10” crown that the client really wants rather than a wimpy 6”. Or by holding my nose and using a machine-dovetailed drawer box rather than hand-dovetailed, we can use a few more veneers in the marquetry.
2/24/22 #13: Making large paint grade doors ...
David, why do you insist on on continually forcing your OPINION on everyone? There is no doubt that you are very knowledgeable in your area of specialization, and I can appreciate that you like to do things "your way", but that is not the answer for everyone. I would ask you to re-read your posts on this thread, they are 95% opinion. The only fact that you state is in your first post where you mention that mdf is not wood. You then continue in that same post and state "The subject here is woodworking", when in fact the title of this forum is Cabinet making.
You have every right to run your business as you would like, but at the end of the day that is what the vast majority of us are here to do, run a business, not a hobby shop that spends a week building a door. You are trying to make those us that don't build "$20,000" doors feel somehow inferior. Where is your portfoloio/ pictures of 100K kitchen/cabinets? Is one better than the other?
I usually enjoy your posts (the ones you create) that show the projects you are working on and the methods that you use as it usually involves items that we do not manufacture/build and they are very interesting to see. With that said, I wish you would use your knowledge (not opinion) to assist those in need. This constant belittling and "I am better than you" mindset needs to stop.
2/26/22 #14: Making large paint grade doors ...
Adam B - Why are you forcing your opinion on readers when it is just your opinion?
There is a lot of opinion here, and there is nothing wrong with that. Therefore, there is a lot of difference of opinion. And all that is OK. Makes people think, improves their skills, their products, their businesses. Makes better woodworkers. I do not intend to force my opinion on anybody. Anyone is capable of disagreeing with me, just as you have. I enjoy a spirited, even passionate, discussion as much as anyone.
We often spend a week building a door, or pair of doors. That is what it takes. We can also build a door in a day, and that is what that door takes. You object to spending a week for what reasons? I certainly do not intend to belittle anyone or make them feel inferior if they do not spend a week building doors. I have developed my business model over the years to concentrate on doors and related architectural woodwork. Not box type cabinets. We have built kitchens when good customers request it. The website has photos of kitchens we have built, including a Rosewood kitchen that was well over 100K. (The Rosewood originated with the C F Martin Guitar Company. This is a story I have yet to tell.)
And lastly, I have just published a book that seeks to help shops add a profitable line of work to their repertoire. I like to see woodworkers prosper. Not get arrogant or difficult, but become successful businesses as well as individuals. It is (or should be) part of any plan to start, build and grow a business. "Small Shop Production of Custom Wood Doors" with its wonky title tells it like it is - a field manual to help you or anyone else that would like to adopt door manufacturing as a profit center.
I appreciate the opportunity you gave me to plug the book. Every little bit helps.
2/27/22 #15: Making large paint grade doors ...
Website: http://www.kdunphy.com/
I remember this form a few years ago I would never post it was too aggressive.
I started to post maybe help and prompt my youtube channel.
I take exception when someone suggests what they should post.
Woodworking is getting dumbed down I remember when I was working in aircraft interiors in 97 [ 3 million interiors] they would hire people from commercial cabinet shops these employees never worked with wood yes it's true.
Now I want to expand its a nightmare we have shops in our area small 8 people one person will be the head sander the other head installer, not making this up.I need someone that can install , spray,run basic woodworking equipment not one person has walked through my door that do this.
I took a designer to court for no payment she said on the witness stand that MDF is a good wood [WTF] . I WON. IQ was low in cabinetmaking she was too busy being friends and creating an experience for her clients to learn the basics, it's hard to have a meaningful conversation with people like that.
So David thanks for your time and holding the flame.MDF is a symbol of what's wrong with cabinet-making.
Also, Youtube cabinet making is bad very inexperienced people giving bad advice I wish there were more people with experience doing videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Veaisxc5aRQ
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