I'm trying to get an idea from a larger cabinet shop, meaning 6-10 in production, concerning how the man hours are spent in different parts of the production process building face frame cabinets without a CNC machine. We use a slide saw and a double line bore machine to process panels. How much time in a percentage do you have in these areas. Building face frames, panel processing, and assembly of face frames to boxes, also installing hardware(slides, hinges, drawer boxes and doors) This hardware installation is grouped into one process after the cabinets are stained or painted and lacquered. Any input would be appreciated, thanks.
From contributor Ja
Nick,
I don't want to sound simplistic, but it is easy to get wrapped up in all kinds of timing benchmarks. Why do you want to know? what will you do with all this information? If it is for Estimating, then the only numbers that matter so you can make a profit are your own. Just go measure, record, and add your markups.
Is it for the purpose of increasing throughput & profitability? Then I would suggest you might consider the following approach:
-How many finished cabinets can you make in a day? Not on your best day, but day in and day out, consistently. This is the primary metric we use in our operation.
-What is the 'constraint' or limiting component that controls that number? (Finishing, doors, part processing, assembly...?, could even be sales if you are not bringing in consistent work for the shop)
-Focus your improvements on the constraint first.
-I'll pick an easy example: A production CNC router can process say 40 sheets in a day, and the operator can band parts while the machine is running. Let's say 1 sheet equals one cabinet for easy math. But the finish booth can process no more than 13 complete cabinets (don't forget to figure in mouldings and other ancillary items) per day. Assembly can assemble and have ready for for shipping 30 cabinets per day.
-You can improve anywhere else you want (faster cycle times on the cnc, better assembly techniques, etc), but if you don't find a way to get more than the 13 cabinets worth of parts through your spray booth (perhaps outsource some finishing work even?), you will not make more than the money you make on 13 cabinets per day, and you may spend a lot of money making 'phantom' improvements in other locations and wonder why your bottom line has not improved after making all those changes.
I hope that helps :-)
From contributor co
Let me re-phrase that question:
What things do CNC machines do well and what percentage are those things of all the things you have to do?
Nested base manufacturing seems hands down the best way to cut out a box and make it easy to assemble. What percentage of your problems are getting the box cut out & assembled? If you could make these costs go to zero what would you have left?
In my business getting a decision and commitment out of a customer seems to take a lot more time than the boxes do.
From contributor Bi
I am doing the same analysis, but to determine a different decision. You are trying to see how much time Nested Base will save over Line Bore style. We are trying to see the difference between CNC (pod and rail) over Nested Base. The big advantages of both over standard building techniques is 'finish assembly', and cabinet assembly. With CNC you get all drawer glide holes, hinge mounting plate holes, and cabinet assembly holes (so your parts line up perfectly). Can you imagine holding a drawer glide up in the cabinet and screwing it in to it's pre-drilled hole, and it's perfectly square, and exact distance from the front edge? Please tell nested base users, is it really that much faster than pod and rail? Would I save $1k labor per kitchen?
From contributor ca
We went from a pod and rail to a cnc router. Just material jockeying, is amazing, the $ saved, wow ! But, and big but---- we were cutting on a slider and no, the ptp was not downloadable. and with no beam saw we could never stack cut and gain the speed.
The cnc router is screen to machine. Honestly, the software is the king and the solution.
As per the 1k a kitchen savings ? Ya, just for the fact, it all comes off the cnc, we draw it, it cuts it. The guides are not figured out yet, but jigs make it fly on face frame jobs.
Commercial casework stands up daily. We finally bought an auto dowel machine to punch the holes and load the dowels to keep up.
As per methods for the OP. I would expect with a good shop lay out and well trained guys, manual cut, a medium sized kitchen four guys- cabinets standing and all door blanks ready to glue up- day 1. Doors built and sanded day 2. Casework stained and completely ready to ship on day 4.
All considering cut lists, guides, hinges, etc all in and lists all worked out, period.
Profiles decided, all of it. No questions asked. Able to work uninhibited. Dedicated machines, jigs in place. Spray booth clean and ready.
Look @ this video-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSj3P53Hon0
And this one-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqw0MSUORFM
We work it all out on paper now, even the complicated crap and it flies out the doors.
Can you time and expect excellent results in manual shops, yes.
From contributor Ja
Nick,
Sorry, I reread your post and sort of hijacked it in a different direction.
All I said above are things to consider still. If you have a good system automation will make it better, if you have a poor or no system adding automation will only increase the problems.
FWIW:
We only do euro style cabinet boxes, 1 guy on average with our older cnc (no drill bank, aluminum frame CNT motion router), and holz-her bander we easily (day in and day out every day of the week) can have 25-30 sheets cut, banded, ready to assemble in a 10 hr day. (this would be a lot of volume for us but it would be sustainable if needed from a machining perspective) This will include all holes for assembly, drawers, hinges, dado backs, cabinet numbering etc. If I needed parts I'd buy another basic cnc and edgbander, I would very likely not worry about getting faster machines. The same operator runs the cnc & edgbands the parts while the cnc is cutting the next sheet, usually with time to spare.
-Someone mentioned software being 'king'. I would call it 'queen' and your total system needs to be 'king'. the software will have a huge impact on your system. (good or bad)
-I hope this is more helpful.
From contributor Bi
I want to give an example for comparison. A large M. Bath. 8 sheets 3/4" maple ply interiors, 3 sheets 1/2" backs. It just took us 1-1/2 hr to cut on a slider, 1-1/2 hr to CNC (bar code labels, and code downloaded to the machine, Confirmat/dowel construction), 1 hr to band. 4 hours total ready to assemble. drawer glide holes, hinge mounting plate holes, shelf holes, construction holes, all dead nuts accurate. Hard to imagine cutting backs on a router, but I guess... This adds up to 18.5 min/sheet processing, ready for assembly. How might these numbers compare to the same job on a router?
From contributor Ni
Hi Jay and other responders.
The responses are appreciated. What I'm looking for are % times for the different functions. Just estimates. This info can only come from a larger shop that tracks the individual functions. In our shop currently we track total man hours for a given job. I've not yet broken it down but will begin that analysis. I've always been a guy to ask for information in conjunction with my own investigations. I've read True 32 and it's helpful but most of our work is Face Frame. In addition I know things change in larger operations. I understand bottlenecks and will continue to address that area (finishing).
In a larger shop it make take two in building face frames and one in panel cutting and 3 in final assembly in order to keep the flow. Thanks again for the input.
From contributor Ev
You don't need to be a big shop to track detailed time data. We're a 3-man shop and each guy has an app on his phone that he uses to clock in and out of each task. I can create focused reports to see exactly how we spent our time. We use the Toggl app but there are many others.
From contributor wh
Does the time to produce a product vary depending on who is producing it?
If so is it because some people are naturally faster or your manufacturing processes are too democratic?
From contributor Al
What to do,
If you use a merit pay system and one person is paid $10 and another $8 you should expect to see a $100 task take the $10 person 10 hours and the $8 person 12.5 hours. If both employees are paid the same over a long period you should be able to expect the same task to take them both the same amount of time.
A-
From contributor ca
Big Tup
1 hour for all on the router, max 2 the most. Return onion skin so nothing slips around. It's running fast. 1 hour max at the doweller and 1 hour @ the bander. That's 3 total.
I just cut your walk from slider to the ptp out, and walking to the slider is the same as the router, but we did not have to trim cut and move the fences, all the jockeying around and picking up and mis-cuts are gone. All of it. Yes, I operated the slider and ptp for years, yes sometimes I would forget to cut a shelf, or stretcher, especially on a large job.
I cut 37 sheets of melamine on the router in 18" depth of various lengths for a shelving job @ a hospital for an IT Dept. Took 2 hours 17 minutes. I ran it @ night after the operator went home. I wanted an exact time. I used 5x8 sheets. I saved the time on not squaring off the nest and dumped the off-fall onto a skid to get out of my way. Used a vacuum lift to load. I put the bunk @ the prime location to the router.
From contributor Ji
Evan, I like the idea of tracking time on an app. all of my employees have smart phones as well. I searched for the Toggl app and didn't see it. What did you search for to find it. Can you explain more about how the app works and you use it?
Jim
From contributor Jo
On Android I searched toogl, it was in the first one in the search list. Looks good, and I will start using it Monday.
From contributor Ch
For those of us who are having a difficult time searching for "toogl"...
It is called "Toggl". When I did a google search, it made the correction for me without me realizing it. I had to look a couple of times to learn it has two g's, not two o's. :-)
Now, that I have found the website (toggle.com), how is anyone using this?
Also, it is free. What, if any, are the downsides?
