I am making 5 round-to-square tops for a country club bar/restaurant. I decided to make them out of EU steamed beech bc of its strength and finishing versatility. The accepted proposal was for a solid wood top, joined on edges for the square with hinged flip up ends (slotted holes on the ones attached at the end grain). The client is now asking if we can create a more "interesting" top with a mitered band/edge and an X pattern (like the ones in catalogs).
I will NOTmake it with solid wood, especially beech (exp/contr), but I have considered gluing 3/32" or 1/8" thick segments of beech onto MDF on both faces, using urea F glue (the same way we make our veneered panels, but with much thicker wood). I think 3/32" would take most of the beating that a restaurant would offer. I have attached a sketch below. The edges would be solid beech, mitered, and glued with dominoes. I have attached a sketch of the square part of the top.
I also thought it might help to lightly chamfer the edges of the individual planks before gluing up. I thought about gluing the edges of the planks into the pattern first with PVA, sand on our drum sander and then glue onto the top with Urea glue and our vacbag. BTW, we use Enduro water based finsihes. My questions:
Does anyone have any experience with 3/32" or 1/8" thick "veneer" planks going in all sorts of cross-grain patterns? Will it fail? Do I need to consider 1/16"? Should I push back even harder to abandon this design? Should I start drinking now? Seriosuly, would love to hear from others with practical experience in this area. This one is a new one for me. Thanks in advance for your help.
From contributor Mi
My opinion is to be on the safe side 1/8" veneers are just a little bit too thick.
anything thicker "3/16,1/4" etc... is asking for trouble.
There is historical precedent that would suggest 1/8" would be ok for many centuries but with modern heating I would not be so sure.
I usually aim for 3/32 prior to sanding, so that I end up somewhere on the top side of 1/16"
Even though I own a domino, based on past results I would be more inclined to use biscuits at the miters, since they are wider, and I feel they would allow less movement at the joint. I would not rely on glue alone to attach the edge, to the MDF Core.
From contributor Le
Thanks for your help, Mike. I've always wonderd at what thickness does veneer move more like thick wood. I need to think through if 1/16" would be thick enough to handle the use and abuse of a bar/restaurant. My preference is still to glue up parallel straight boards, but I wanted to have another viable option given the client's inquiry. Glad to hear that you've done it successfully with 1/16". On the edges... yes, I did not have time to sketch them in, but we use dominoes or splines to attach the hardwood edges to the MDF substrate.
From contributor ma
The weak link in the design is the transition between the solid banding and the veneered field. I'd band the core with solid, then veneer over with whatever pattern you want. 1/8 would be fine for the veneers. Up to 1/4" would be o.k., but edge jointing and gluing is necessary in thick veneers, so the thicker you go, the more critical this work is. At any rate, If you price it for doing the work right, they'll likely balk and let you do it the way you've already quoted.
From contributor Da
I did once a table approximately 800x 800 mm with beech veneer (0,6mm) on mdf substrate (closed quarter layout) hoot pres with urea resin glue and in a couple of days there weer 3 mm gaps on the miter joints.
Beach and water from the glue is not a good combination.
Damir
From contributor Le
Thanks everyone for your help so far. I will be providing my high scope change estimate this weekend and I expect (and hope, as Mark pointed out) they will balk at it and we can go back to my original plan.
As many of you can relate, however, I cannot stop thinking about any challenge and in particular how this top would have come out with the thick veneer concept, so I think I will make a prototype/sample and see how it goes. If it works out I will keep it in our showroom.
I am very curious, however, with Damir's experience with regular 1/32" (.6mm) steamed beech veneer. I know it has a high movement propensity, but I am still surprised that regular veneer failed in such a way with UF glue. Perhaps I misunderstood what you wrote? Maybe I am converting my units wrong? DId you veneer with a matching backer on the other side of the MDF?
From contributor Da
The dimensions of the panel were 31x31 inch and it was 1.5 inch thick with booth sides veneered with the same veneer so the panel was balanced but gaps in the miters came in couple of days or maybe a week later after the panel was finished.
It was before couple of years so I don't remember exactly.
Maybe there was to much water in the glue.
If I will bi doing something similar with beach I will ad lees water then recommended in the glue.
I did same tops exactly the same with white oak and ash with no problems and with ticker veneers (2 mm)
Damir
From contributor Da
I have seen veneers and even plastic laminate move as described by Damir when they are stored in different areas and have different MC when they are laid up. Gaps opened up in a few days or as much as 2 weeks. Acclimatize all the parts, in your shop, for a week or so and use low water glues, and there should be no problem. Glue the edges as if it is solid wood, using tape as you would for veneer.
At some point, thick 'veneer' starts to act more like solid than veneer, but it is hard to say when it will happen with all the variables in play. I have done work as you described with up to 1/4" thick parts with no problems, all interior, on MDF.
I agree that the wide perimeter should be dropped in favor of more stable panel, with a 1/2" wide solid at the outer edge, then veneered over. I would avoid the v-joints, as they will catch crumbs, and harbor water from cleaning. I know nothing about the WB finish except that it scares me.
No reason to run from this, a better price means a better profit. Save the drinking for when you are done.
