I have a peeling problem that I'm baffled with - About 13-14 years ago i installed a kitchen for the owner of the cabinet Co that I work for got their cabinets from another dealer because what we had did not offered the finish they wanted - An antique white with a glaze
The cabinets are "Starmark" brand; here is the problem:
The paint started to peel off on the doors of the sink cabinet and some on the face frame So of course we suspect water/moisture problems. About 6-7 years ago they had someone repaint the doors and it happened again.
Then about 2-3 years ago they asked me to give it a try I took the doors with me and I sanded them down to bare wood - it was a breeze! After cleaning them and sanded to 150 I primed with clawlock, then 2 coats of stealth Glaze them and top coated with Krystal All MLC So everything was fine Until I had to go there today to do some other work I noticed the doors that I repainted are starting to peel again!!!?? Not as bad It's on the top of the doors near the joints It's plain wood The homeowner are very clean and there's a maid there just about everyday! I have told them to make sure to wipe the cabinets dry when cleaning and the maid is aware The rest of the cabinets are doing ok There is a door showing some peeling and it is right next to the sink base I'm trying to solve this problem for them Ok I know...it's a water problem but everything is dry around! Maybe the dishwasher?but there's a cabinet to the left and no water damage We put a lots of kitchens painted/stained... etc and can't recall a single call about paint peeling off Anyone have any ideas? Thanks
From contributor jo
The maids are likely part of the problem. they use cleaners not intended for cabinetry and their method of cleaning is usually to "swab the decks" where thew will get water everywhere then wipe dry at the end. By then water has leaked under the drip lip, down the the backs and front of the doors and soaked into the joints ect... If its a painted finish the center panels need to be caulked in on the face side and if there are any hairline cracks in the joints those should be filled as well. You also need a more flexible finish that will move with the expansion and contraction of the doors. It is likely that the finish cracks after a few expansion/contraction cycles. After that point its only a matter of time before water does its thing.
From contributor Ro
I really DOUBT the maid is responsible.
The other cabinets would tend to show similar problems sooner or later if the maid is wiping them with water.
Prior to 'refinishing' did you measure the moisture content?
If that is the only door, build a new one!!!
From contributor jo
To Rober J. I didnt blame the maids exclusively. Have you ever seen how homeowners and maids conduct themselves around the kitchen sink? its a total slop fest. Even if they are wiping up after themselves water still has time to seep in. and Im actually blaming the type of finish and schedule. If it were an issue with the MC the then you would be able to apply the same logic and say that this should be happening in other places around the room. A large company like Starmark probably built all of those doors from the same batch of kiln dried lumber. I dont know how much finishing or refinishing you have done, but how many times have you seen finish failure, at the sink area, due to improper moisture content of the lumber. And how many finishers have you met who even own a moisture meter?
From contributor Ma
Ok
I really don't think it's how the cabinets are clean and/or the product used
I also don't think it's from water splashed
I have seen the maid clean the cabinets before and there is nothing wrong the way she's doing
CV is very resistant to a lot of chemical
If that was the case all of the cabinets would have the problem
I think I might have an idea but I would need to talk to the homeowner and the maid
Maybe I should of mentioned how the kitchen layout is
The sink base is set at a 45° from each side of the cabinets run
To the right a couple fillers making up the 45 turn and then a base 27
To the left a couple fillers to make up the 45° turn then the dishwasher and then a 18" trash can pull out
The trash can pull out is fine not paint lifting
Maybe a little worn edges
So I'm thinking that maybe the homeowner/maid opens the dishwasher too soon after the cycle?
There's always a lot of steam coming out of a dishwasher right after it finishes the cycle
And that could be what's causing the paint to peel
Also the cabinet to the right of sink base is showing a little peeling on the left door
Also the sink base is showing some peeling on the face frame but not behind the doors
More like on the upper/lower corners
I will keep you posted after talking with them
And hopefully that's all it is
Thanks
From contributor Wi
Sorry I don't have an answer for you, but if it's any consolation I've battled with this same problem for years. I never could pin it down to a certain thing I did differently on jobs that had problems with finishes peeling. It was almost always near the sinks and trash pullouts, so yes you would have to think that water and other liquids, foods, etc. was part of the problem. But there were jobs that never had any problems. I don't think it's necessarily a matter of the homeowners' cleanliness. For example, one of our most beautiful sets was my parents' kitchen remodel. It was only my mom and dad living in their home, so the kitchen wasn't used as much as someone's with say a large family with a bunch of kids. And she has always kept her cabinets reasonably clean and dry. But the finish has failed at the sinks, at the trash pullout, and now I've noticed it's failing on more of the base cabinets. I used post-cat lacquer on these particular cabinets, but I've used both pre-cat and post-cat in the past, and honestly I can't say the post-cats were any more durable than the pre-cats. I've leaned more toward post-cat lacquers, believing that the higher price and shorter pot-life were the prices you paid for a more durable product. But like I said, I'm not convinced of that. (Although I'm also not convinced that the pre-cat was better either.) I've never used conversion varnish because of the extremely short pot life and because touch-ups and repairs are more difficult, at best. But maybe CV is the answer to the peeling finish problem. I'm still looking for answers too.
From contributor jo
Since I switched to water based poly and acrylic I have not had a single issue. Twelve years of no call backs has been nice.
It has to do with the customer. Of course they arent going to be sloppy in front of you. My mother, a cabinetmakers wife, is very guilty. She is extremely neat and tidy but cant seem to keep water off the cabinets. Then I have gone back to other customers homes who either dont use their kitchens or are very vigilant about keeping the water off and they look great. and this is with basic lacquer. But like I say since I made the switch to using HIGH QUALITY water based products from bottom to top this is no longer an issue.
From contributor Wi
Jonathan, what products do you use?
From contributor Ma
Yes Johnathan
What product do you use?
I have tried Mlc waterborne and I'm not too impress with it
From contributor jo
Currently I use the Enduro line from General Finishes. Their budget lacquer holds up against water damage better than the agualente from mlc. I have left plywood out in the sun and rain, and the plywood failed and fell apart before the lacquer did. and the coatings just get better from there. I have found the key is to go water based from bottom to top. meaning that you use the wb stain or primer. the stain or primer will actually soak into the wood and then the top coat homogenizes with it so there is less of a chance for the delamination effect.
By no means am I saying that WB is magic. generally speaking it either takes an extra sanding or an extra coat to acheive the same quality look that you may be used to with a solvent based system. And they never look quite as rich, but for kitchen and bath cabinetry I have found that no one is concerned over the added richness of a solvent finish.
From contributor Ma
Okay
I have a Woodcraft store near me and can get GF no problem
However how do get custom/matching colors paint?
All they have is white and clear
From contributor jo
You can have color matching done directly through general finishes. It will be best to go through them for your needs at first. Then they can place you in contact with an industrial supplier in your area. You will get better pricing this way.
From contributor Ma
Well forget GF
My nearby Woodcraft does not sell the professional stuff
And I'm not playing that game of ordering on line for my finishing product
I'm going to try Benjamin Moore/VA paint
To see if they offer a professional waterborne paint
From contributor jo
They do, but it will not perform to your standards in regards to dry times ect... What part of the country are you in? There are a few great brands of waterborne. Not just GF. Did you check on GFs website to see if they have an industrial dealer near you? GF doesnt even do online ordering. You have to call them or fax them to place the order and they are very reliable. They ship from wisconsin to southern california for me and have never had a foul up. Their color matching is impecable. But like I say there are others as well. BM makes housepaint. Its is very good house paint, but It dries and cures way too slow to be used in a production environment. I have tried all of their products because I have a BM shop right at the end of the block
From contributor Ma
Yes they do have GF but it's the retail/diy stuff
Not professional
GF won't let Woodcraft sell their professional grade products
I can't get SW Kem Aqua also
I'm in Norfolk Virginia
I like to be able to take door/drawer to get color match
I just want to deal with someone locally and so far it's the Wurth group that sells MLC product
They are very close to our business and we get most of our cabinets supplies from them
But I just not sure about MLC waterborne
From contributor jo
I too use wurth louis and co. The MLC stuff is not great. Chemcraft waterbased products are good, I get them through EB Bradley co. If you are on the east coast give Target coatings a call, I believe they are in NJ and probably have a number of distributors around you. I used their proucts for several years but switched because they dont have good distribution in Ca. Their products are among the best and are equal to GF products. If I have a matching situation I just slip it in an envelope and mail it to GF. Im sure Target will do the same. Being that close to where they manufacture I really would give them a call, they are great people to deal with and really stand behind their products
From contributor Jo
MasterCabMan,
Have you considered ValSpars Zenith waterborne products? You can get them through A&M in Richmond. They do the color match there. I tried it and liked it , but I too prefer to take my color matches in and deal with them in person. The round trip is just too long just for a color match. Their old field rep would pick up and drop off color matches. Haven't been contacted by the new one.
Like you, I have dealt with Wurth in Norfolk for about 10 years. I have only used the MLC Agualente waterborne products from them. Until now I would say the Agualente has been acceptable. Now that they have changed the formula to Agualente Plus, I don't know what to think.
I'll admit, if you have the patience to wait out the longer drying times, the end finish has been very good. I would even say much better. But, The drying time and procedure has changed dramatically. It takes much longer than it used too. The primer is the same, but the Plus is a whole new process.
I was caught off guard with this change, so I was stuck having to experiment with it in order to get a job finished. Now that I have got a better handle on it, I am trying to see if I can develop a finishing procedure that incorporates the longer drying times.
From contributor fr
use a vinyl primer under your conversion varnish instead, it's more flexible and more resistant to moisture. the water probably go in the wood from the end grain of the door or some micro crack and it swell the wood which make you finish to peel off. Another option is to use a 2k poly with a isolante as a under coat. that system is very durable and more flexible but more expensive.
