I'm at an impasse. Probably brain - related but maybe tool related.
I run a small shop, it's myself and I take a student on in a woodworking co-op program from the local college.
I am fairly specialised. I do 3 things. I make wood lamps (solid wood bent laminations), Driveway, pedestrian and garden gates from Doug fir, mahogany, cedar and white oak, and I have a very specialized product that pays the bills but doesn't concern my problem.
That's all I do. I don't make cabinets and the only sheet goods in my shop are used for forms and templates.
Current machines are slider, 10hp shaper, jointer/planer, bandsaw,mortiser, a vacuum press and the usual peripheries.
Now the issue. I have standard styles for my gates and these are all set up to go. However, 1 out of 3 customers chooses a custom design, either theirs or mine. My lamps are very short runs. Usually 20 per design.
So for every new lamp. or every custom gate that involves arches or curves I need to make new templates and/or forms. THIS is what kills my bottom line. Frankly it takes me far too long to produce a new form or template using the bandsaw and sanding and endless fine tuning.
At this point I use sketch up .
Is a small CNC the answer? Or is there a better way? Am I doing it all wrong from the start? I've put so much thought into this I think i'm suffering from paralysis through analysis, or whatever that expression is.
I'm hesitant to set a budget, I'd rather determine what i need and work backwards to meet my finances
Any help would be welcome. thanks
From contributor Ja
Have you considered getting these things fabricated by someone who does have a CNC? If you really want to only do what you do, this may make sense. There are some pretty savvy CNC shops out there that could probably do your template work for the same or less than what your current method does, plus it would allow you to do the part you seem to really like, making the end product as opposed to the templates.
You avoid the overhead and learning curves with a CNC by outsourcing this. Now, if you just want a cool tool, well get the router.... :)
From contributor Dr
If all you are looking for is a slab of plywood or MDF cut to a shape and can supply a cad or vector file you should be able to get this done for less than $100.00.
Post or send a CAD file and I'll tell you what you should be paying.
Shopbot has a list online somewhere of people all over who have machines that are looking for work.
If you're in Ontario, Canada, I can help.
From contributor Ma
I agree with the above , for the most part. I always tend to look at problems 3 ways;
1.) What type of problem is this? (business, process, personnel,etc)
2.) What is the frequency? (how often is this happening)
3.) What is the magnitude?( what is the impact on the business, finances, customer satisfaction, moral, mental state, etc)
Based on frequency alone, outsourcing may be the most feasible. My understanding of your frequency may be different than yours - from what I read I was guessing you were running into these situations once a month, if that?
It will definitely require the least amount of capital. Perhaps the interim solution is to pilot developing a sourcing partner and see how it goes over a few weeks, months, etc?
Based just off what you told us about your business, if it were my business and I decided to buy an entry level machine _ I would buy a small footprint used pod and rail. This assumes your templates are under 2" thick (and everything else you would want to machine). The primary reason is most have conversational controls, which means the programming capability is embedded in the control and you would not have to buy a 3rd party CAM software. They are also very flexible for doing "one offs" out of drop material or something other than a full sheet. They are a smaller footprint machine and most are manufactured by major players in the industry = industrial iron. They will also give you more travel than a half table or small foot print flat table.
Hope this helps!
Mark T.
From contributor ja
There are Camaster owners all over the Nation who do this, Just check out the map on the support forum
From contributor B.
I'd have to agree with the above posters that outsourcing is the way to go.....at least for a start.
After you've been sending out the templates for a while you will begin to get a handle on whether this is indeed cost effective. Plus you'll learn more about the CNC process along the way which will help you decided what you need for machinery should you decide to purchase your own CNC. And along the way you might even discover more ways a CNC can help you out.
Easing in slowly this way will likely show you your answer without having to do a lot of guesswork.
BH Davis
From contributor lo
Thanks so far guys. Maybe it's not as big an issue as I thought. Outsourcing certainly seems a viable option and I have someone close who is capable. I never think of outsourcing as people come to me for things and I forget I can do it in reverse.
Frequency is more like once or twice a week that I'm making new forms and/or templates so it does take a significant amount of my time. Significant to me anyway. Yes, I have a ridiculous number of forms and templates in my shop.
I also thought if I had a CNC I could add carvings/engravings to my gates, which has been asked a number of times by clients. Some have gone without and some I've lost the job because I wasn't able to provide this service.
A pod and rail is appealing to me.
From contributor B.
One perhaps unexpected upside to having a CNC is that you'll be able to get rid of a lot of those templates. It often becomes simpler and more practical just to recut a form from an old file than to store and keep track of one that's already made. It's easier to store files than forms.
BH Davis
From contributor ja
Go See some shops,, this is always mu first advice, go see as many as you can..
we have a camp in may where a lot of guys like you come to meet the software writers and learn.
CNC can get you out of the woods or show you where the real Green is !
From contributor Ji
I agree with the above posters of getting it outsources. When I wanted to add laser engraving to my products options, I took the work for about 9 months to a friend who had a laser. After that time, I bought my own as I had enough sales to justify the expense. Since then I have made many more items with it that I had never dreamed of before.
So outsource until you have a good handle on it. Then you will know something of your needs.
From contributor je
You could try 100K garages and see if anyone there is close
From contributor La
I also think outsourcing is a good way to go. Buying new can be expensive and the technology ages quickly. The learning curve for the machine and especially software can be significant. Getting a post processor that will drive a particular machine adds cost to the software deal. Used machines are already a fair distance down their obsolescence path.
As for the engraving/carving part you can also have the other shop do that.
From contributor ja
In 2006 I was inclined to belive as Larry has stated, I was Wrong and greatfull I took another good look at the use of technology in my trade, it has led me down roads that left a good bit of competition in the dust and still does, most all of what I used to have to purchase out in the way of custom work I now do in house and am specified for doing so,, And about the software, companies like Vectric and Moziak are way ahead in keeping the end user up to date with the easiest learning curves available. This ain't the 90's anymore !
From contributor La
JM, My thoughts about using outsourcing as opposed to buying a router were based on my feeling that he wasn't looking to go into the routing business but rather make the forms to allow him to produce more gate & lamp styles.
If he were to use a router to make 2 forms a week, maybe two hours of machine time?? The time, money and learning for a router don't seem justified. If he wants to explore the possible uses of a router he can do that @ little risk by teaming up with a good CNC shop. He may then decide to take the plunge with the knowledge gained. A big advantage would be learning what capabilities he needs in a machine.
Your business and mine are very different but both use CNC equipment extensively. My first one was only a 4x8 with a small drill box, a 10 hp. spindle & 8 position tool changer. It was too limited but still made us pretty good $. I've had CNC routers since the late 90's. Several different CAD CAM systems and way too many "up grades."
From contributor lo
Once again, thanks to everyone who has posted with their thoughts.
I must say, each one of you has made sensible points regarding this situation. Which of course means I'm still of 2 minds. ha!
B.H. Davis may have rung the bell big time though with this:
"One perhaps unexpected upside to having a CNC is that you'll be able to get rid of a lot of those templates. It often becomes simpler and more practical just to recut a form from an old file than to store and keep track of one that's already made. It's easier to store files than forms. "
I hadn't considered that very strong upside.
It may not seem like I do enough to justify the cnc at this time but I do spend a number of hours a week doing template and form work. I'm slow and very particular and fussy about it.
At this point I think I'll approach the local shop I know. They have both a pod and rail and a flat table. Maybe get started with them with an eye on purchasing a machine in the next 6 months.
Just thinking about it has given me new ideas on work methods and design possibilities for my existing products and has opened my eyes to new product offerings.
If you've got more ideas, keep 'em coming!
cheers!
From contributor ja
Sorry for not responding sooner larry I was off to Easter ! I may have taken your post to hard,, I am all for a good look see by anyone considering CNC in this fellows case a good dose of outsourcing will probably answer all his questions,, Or lead to a lot more !!
From contributor La
Lost,
Go to Atlanta & check out as many options as you can. Well worth the trip.
Even with a CNC you will spend time making the templates. CAD time, running the machine (not a lot of time), learning the ropes (quite a bit of time.)
It very well could turn into an expanded line of business. It is really hard to determine where it could take you w/o a lot of searching.
From contributor lo
Thanks Larry for your input.
If I end up buying a CNC I'm hesitant to buy used due to "aging" software. On the other hand new is a big investment.
What would be the oldest machine you would consider? I see so many 10-15 year old Biesse rovers for sale for reasonable cost but if they're obsolete software wise or unable to be serviced it's really a false economy.
Is it better to buy a used high end machine or a new glorified hobby machine? I suppose that's the question a lot of people ask.
I may go to Atlanta but I'm going to Ligna next year so I may just wait.
From contributor La
I'm no expert of a grain of salt is worth considering...
"If I end up buying a CNC I'm hesitant to buy used due to "aging" software." For reasons I don't understand, it is apparently not possible, in at least some cases, to change to a new operating system with out changing the electronics.
"On the other hand new is a big investment. What would be the oldest machine you would consider?" The OEMs parts availability after 10 years goes way down. That said many parts are best bought from other sources.
"I see so many 10-15 year old Biesse rovers for sale for reasonable cost but if they're obsolete software wise or unable to be serviced it's really a false economy." Electronics and cables and pneumatics and... all age with time. Think of how many flexes the cables have gone through in 10 years. There are multiple cables on each machine. The OEM will want $400 to 800 each. You can buy them from IGUS for 1/2 that. But it may be difficult for you to diagnose therefore requiring tech support. You then face the issue of replace just the failed one or all of them to avoid the possible cost of multiple tech calls. Plastic pneumatics tubes age & start to fail, especially those undergoing repeated bending. Same with the valves. It gets to be a lot like remodeling a house, where do you stop?
"Is it better to buy a used high end machine or a new glorified hobby machine?" If my living depends on it I'd be a lot more likely to go for a middle of the road machine, new $50 to 80K. I know I'm going to get blasted for that comment!
"I may go to Atlanta but I'm going to Ligna next year so I may just wait." I'd still go to Atlanta, worth gaining as much insight as possible. I always thought I'd like to see Ligna, never have.
From contributor B.
I've never given much credence to the concept of obsolete software with a CNC router. While newer CAD/CAM software may have some sort of issue creating code for the older machine control package (and I haven't heard of that happening although it could have) the CAD/CAM package that came with the machine will still work. If the machine ran efficiently when it was new there is no reason to think it won't run efficiently with the same software now. You're not talking high production here so the ultimate software package is not required.
While a mechanical breakdown is indeed a real possibility with a used machine......and the comment above on the life of cables is definitely legitimate.....I wouldn't rule out a used machine based upon the age of the software.
If the machine is Windows based with an older version of windows no longer supported by Microsoft then for security purposes just don't tie the machine to a network. We're still running our router on XP and will continue to do so without concern. My wide bed scanner is on a Windows 2000 PC.....worked fine then and works fine now.
BH Davis
From contributor La
It's the internal software/hardware VS the operating system that I think causes the problem, not your CAD CAM system. We've replace the computer interface on two of our machines when they failed. We couldn't go to the newest operating system because of the interface to the actual drives. We went as far as we could and managed to get remote diagnostics on them. In many cases that alone will pay for the up grade if you avoid having an on site tech once.
You may want to use different input software than came with the machine. For us it was running all the machines on the same software. I sure don't mind running old software as long as it continues to do what needs to be done.
From contributor Ri
Can't see where anyone has talked learning curve to the buy CNC side of the decision. Remember you have software to learn. You aren't going to be making much the first couple of months after you get a cmc, so you may have to outsource during that time to keep money flowing in.
From contributor Bi
We have a Busellato and the Genesis software that comes with it would allow you to make the parts you are describing. The learning curve is not significant, the software is pretty friendly. I am not familiar with your product. How thick and what type of material are you working with?
From contributor je
where are you located If you are near Cleveand Oh I could show you mine and you could do a test cut.
From contributor FO
A small CNC router is a good choice.
