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Subject: Re: Exterior wood doors

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Message Thread:

Exterior wood doors

9/9/15       
Dan Collier Member

Website: http://collierscustom.com

Hi all
we have been asked by a friend to make an exterior wood door and frame for their house, our question is how should we be dealing with a solid wood door in central north america due to the extreme cold faced during winter. should this door have some sort of foam core or will solid walnut be suitable on its own ?
the door will be a horizontal TGV plank look.
We have made multiple exterior doors over the years but none since moving to north america.

9/9/15       #2: Exterior wood doors ...
rich c.

What do you mean by "plank look"? Does TGV mean tongue and v groove? A v groove will be a horrible water trap.

9/9/15       #3: Exterior wood doors ...
Dan Collier Member

the TGV does mean tongue and v groove
this door will have no water on it as there is an 8' overhang
we are more concerned about the cold bridge when it is -18 to -40 outside
the horizontal plank will have no issue being a moisture trap provided the tongue is facing up.

9/10/15       #4: Exterior wood doors ...
GW

Dan,

There have been discussions, on this site, about this type door so, you could do a search on the knowledge base section.

Personally, I would make a stile and rail sub frame, fill between the frame with rigid foam and clad the outsides.

Two concerns I would have. One, how are you going to control seasonal movement of the faces. Two, if the v-groove runs from edge to edge on the door what is the detail where the v-groove closes against the weather stripping.

Again, personally, I would stay away from that type of door. In that climate, or any, I would recommend a solid wood door with frame and panel construction. If you really want insulation, make the door 2 1/4" thick and insulate between the panels,

9/10/15       #5: Exterior wood doors ...
David R Sochar Member

We have made many doors with a method similar to what GW describes. You can search Woodweb for discussions of 'ladder core' doors and plank doors.

We make a 3/4" center core that is mortise and tenon stiles and rails, with several cross rails. Hence the term ladder core, since it looks a bit like a ladder. We then can add 3/4" planks that are T&G v-grooved to each face of the core. Rigid foam is used to fill the voids in the core.

In your case, I would run 2-3 vertical rails between the stiles so it will not look like a ladder, but the meat is still there to fasten your faces to.

As for dealing with wood movement in the faces, a v-joint T&G will have a bit of 'crush zone' in it along the edges. Keep the planks narrow, and leave about .040" between the planks at the joint. The idea is to let each board move in its own place, like flooring. They should be glued to the ladder core. We like a vacuum bag for this.

As for -40F, I might consider making the door 3" thick - or thicker, and sourcing hardware first. I know Rocky Mountain can adapt to 3". Glue will still work fine, hinges should be heavy duty ball bearing 5x5 or similar. I would try to use a wood sill to keep from transmitting cold in, heat out.

Also, Joe Calhoun at Cascade Millwork in Colorado makes a European style door that has a double rabbet system with better weather stripping than the usual single rabbet exterior door. That may be better suited to the extremes you deal with.

9/10/15       #6: Exterior wood doors ...
Joe Calhoon

We build a lot of plank doors. They weather better than panel doors. Thicker is better. I do not like to make North American type non rebated doors thicker than 2 1/4" or so. Thicker than this the bevel edge gets large and not much purchase with the gasket. It is possible to make a flush rebated door using butt hinges and conventional mortise locks.

Here is a 78mm thick Fir (3 1/16") Euro door ready for foam insulation. And a conventional US door in rustic walnut at 2 1/4" thick.


View higher quality, full size image (968 X 1296)


View higher quality, full size image (968 X 1296)


View higher quality, full size image (1224 X 1632)

9/11/15       #7: Exterior wood doors ...
dan Member

Thanks for the detailed response Guys.
The search turned up some good information.
I am still a little unsure on the complete weather stripping seal I did install some exterior doors that incorporated a mole hair seal around the edges of the door itself so we might add something like this.

David: when you say that you use vacuum bagging to get a good glue up to the boards is there a system that you can recommend or can I make my own ?
we have looked at some home made equipment for making some curved work with veneers. but had no idea if shop made Vacuum system would be good enough to secure planks.

Joe: Those are some good looking doors
do you have a source for a traditional mortise lock ?
I have not seen any since being in Canada, only on really old doors.
Can I ask you what you are using for a weather strip on the sill and frame ?

9/11/15       #8: Exterior wood doors ...
David R Sochar Member

Our vacuum equipment is all from Daryl Keil of Vacuum Pressing Systems. Durable and reliable, with lots of support from the company. Vacuum bags will press with about 14lbs per square inch - not a lot on a point load, but quite a bit over the surface of a door. We always face and edge our materials on a joiner to get dead flat and straight stock.

The v-joints will present a problem with the current normal weatherstrip on the edge of the frame rabbet. You will need to augment or change to an edge sealing material. Or add a solid 1/2" perimeter at the edges of the door. We used to see a lot of spring bronze here - the type that is nailed to the jamb rabbet face - but that would be barely marginal at the extreme cold you get.

https://www.vacupress.com/

9/11/15       #9: Exterior wood doors ...
Geoff

A word of caution.

When work was slow, about six years ago, I was splitting my time between doing finish carpentery and working in a wood shop. During that time the shop manager built an exterior door just like shown here: ladder frame, foam core, faced with 6" wide t&g quarter sawn sapele, laminated in a vacuum bag with unibond 800.

The door was installed at coastal island home.

The door swelled so much the only way they could get it open was to cut door apart with a sawzall.

9/11/15       #10: Exterior wood doors ...
David R Sochar Member

A plank door can swell and cause real problems. The first plank door I made did this, and sent me back to the drawing board looking for reasons why it failed.

Most often the desire is to pull up the boards tightly across their width, to make everything nice and tight. Then when the boards swell, they expand and will grow, bending the rails, or blowing the glue joints. My failed door bowed over 1-1/2" across its width!

If you look at the photo of Joe Calhoun's door in process, you can notice a clean, consistent gap between the planks, and a loose spline inserted along the length of the planks. The spline also has room in its plows for the expansion. This gap is where the boards go when they expand, and the stout mortise and tenon frame holds it all together and prevents racking.

9/11/15       #11: Exterior wood doors ...
Joe Calhoon

the trick with these doors is to glue the planks to the frame but not to each other so you do not have the expansion of a whole glued together panel. We normally run T&G on the moulder for this and I do not
remember why this one was splined. In this case the spline was glued to only one board but not the mating board.
We have a vac press for gluing but have also used large curve culls for this.

9/17/15       #12: Exterior wood doors ...
Joe Calhoon

Dan,
We use a lot of different mortise boxes but my favorite is Accurate.
http://www.accuratelockandhardware.com

For gaskets we use many different types.
Rover, Trelleborg and Resource Conservation on the Euro doors and sometimes NA doors. We also use Q-lon at times

9/17/15       #13: Exterior wood doors ...
David R Sochar Member

Here are some photos of a plank door that show the plank spacing held with spacers, the foam laid in the ladder core, and general construction. This door is 2-1/4" thick.


View higher quality, full size image (1944 X 2592)


View higher quality, full size image (2592 X 1944)


View higher quality, full size image (1944 X 2592)

9/17/15       #14: Exterior wood doors ...
Geoff

David,

What is your choice of adhesive between the t&g boards and the frame. Some thing flexible like a PVA or 3M's 5200 or a rigid setting adhesive like unibond or epoxy?

9/17/15       #15: Exterior wood doors ...
David R Sochar Member

TB III is the preferred glue for workability and durability.

No need to go to anything more exotic, and no need for a rigid glue line.

9/18/15       #16: Exterior wood doors ...
David R Sochar Member

Let me correct myself:

TB II is the preferred glue nowadays. We had been using TBIII for a few years, with no problems. But after a conversation with a glue tech regarding W R Cedar's refusal to glue at times, we changed to TBII since it withstands heat better than III and is more rigid.

Rigidity is not a quality needed in the plank doors, but the extreme flexibility of TB III is not needed or wanted in most glue joints. We have seen bent laminations in TBIII try to straighten themselves out once they are out of the forms.

3/1/19       #18: Exterior wood doors ...
albert grenlie Member

i'm late to the discussion, but referencing the op's question regarding a suitable core, why wouldn't it work to simply glue/adhere thin planks to solid core fiberglass door. seems like the equivalent of a lsl core?

 

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