Message Thread:
Moulder investment
5/9/16
Website: http://customwoodworkandcabinetry.com/index.php
I am considering investing in 5 head moulder.
Any and all help would be appreciated i.e.
space required other equipment needed
recommended brands to use or not use
live and work in County of 1 other established moulding operatorwho always has 30 day or more backlog. great economics in county
5/10/16 #2: Moulder investment ...
Michael,
I'm only going to offer one piece of advice that often gets over looked.
You can't underestimate the necessity of dust collection and dealing with moulder shavings. A moulder running for any amount of time will through off so much in shavings you'll need to have a plan on dealing with them.
Ok, a second piece of advice, if money isn't an object, get a Weinig, you'll never regret it.
Mark
5/10/16 #3: Moulder investment ...
Things you will need , top of list
Farmer to take all chips and shavings
Forklift
Straight line rip saw
Weinig new or used would be the best molder , parts and service are good
18' box truck , for delivery
My expirence it's not worth grinding your own knives , find a good knife grinding shop and build a good relationship
5/10/16 #4: Moulder investment ...
Website: http://www.mr-moulding-knives.com
Mike
I could be of help to you in your quest for moulder information before you purchase. Way too much to write here, my contact information is on our website above,
Give me a call if I can help you
All the best
Russ @ MR
5/11/16 #5: Moulder investment ...
Would be a very interesting thread to keep open to the knowledge base.
To me a lot would depend on whether your talking small runs or are you going to be producing stock/standard profiles. And are you going to have to prepare your own blanks or are you going to pay your supplier to feed you blanks.
The space/power/dc demands for the molder alone are only a small percentage of your investment if your doing the whole lot.
5/11/16 #6: Moulder investment ...
30 years ago i started matching mouldings for clients with a 1/2 shank router in a table , then a 1/2 shaft shaper, then a 3/4 shaft shaper with a power feed.
when clients wanted wider mouldings and longer runs i purchased a jet planermoulder. paid for itself on first job.
in bigger shops i have run the mill shop with a crew andmore then 20 machines including a mikron 652 and a leadermac 6 x 9,6 head.
now retired in my own shop i still use the ma hines i started with depending on the profile ,quantity and delivery. i now have over 200 knives and a 5 head moulder . 2 large 11/4 spindle shapers , power fed 14 inch rip saw as well as all the basic machines. most of my runs are 200 to 2000 ft . a 6 hundred foot run of casing might be 12 80 gallon bags of shavings to go somewhere?
point being , who's your customer ? whats a typical run going to be? i would identify that be&fore purchasing anything. a dream set up is avery sizable investment in capitol and training, but may not be necessary to take care of your clientele
5/11/16 #7: Moulder investment ...
Website: vermonthardwoods.com
Agreed on already posted suggestions:
* Get a Weinig. Period.
* Don't skimp on dust collection. If they say you need 4500CFM make sure you have 4500CFM. And don't cobble a manifold (you don't need to buy theirs - Air Handling makes really good ones a lot cheaper).
* Make sure you have room. Not just the machine and in/out, but staging material in and out as well. Plus material for the next week's jobs and the stuff that customer A said he NEEDED on Thursday but now can't take it for a month.
I disagree with not getting a grinder. We do outsource templates and knives, but do all maintenance ourselves (except 13" stuff because we only have a 9" grinder). Too many times you will hit a staple that got missed, or even some mineral or a gnarly knot that will give you a nick. If you want to put out quality you will need to address it immediately, not just before the next run.
That said, we do also use carbide insert for our everyday and high use items. But if you are doing a lot of custom stuff it's expensive.
If you want to put out the best quality product, plan on pre-planing your material. Yes, modern moulders have a "jointing" first bottom, and it's an improvement, but nowhere near as good as a proper jointing planer (finger feed a la Straight-O-Plane).
Check the electrical requirements (moulder and new dust collector if necessary), and your service entrance.
5/12/16 #8: Moulder investment ...
Website: subercustomshutters.com
I too say go with the Weinig. I also agree that when we leased ours, I found that dust collection and chip disposal became a whole new problem. Plus my power supply did not prove to be adequate, in that our old building at that time did not have 3 phase. I found it to be more than a little frustrating in that immediately, I found that our sawing operation for rough cuts going into the moulder, could not come close to matching what that moulder could run. Eventually that become a good problem to solve, but something easy to overlook.
5/12/16 #9: Moulder investment ...
yes weinig makes a good machine, but, wadkin, scmi,leadermac to name a few are running all over the country and their owners are happy with them. there are also 2x6 4 and 5 head machines that in no way compare to the above but are running flooring louvers and s4s all day long profitably. again i believe you have to look at your market .
5/12/16 #10: Moulder investment ...
Dust collection, dust collection, and did I mention dust collection. Of course in addition a good straightline rip saw and a decent planer. Other than that it's easy!
I have two SCMI and Weinig moulder. To be honest the SCMI machines have been way more reliable and much easier to operate.
5/13/16 #11: Moulder investment ...
I'm with doug. Don't get hung up on the big W, there are other brands that are just as good.
5/14/16 #12: Moulder investment ...
When I bought a 5 head Weinig for a shop I was running, I tracked nearly every foot of material thru that machine. We ran moldings for inventory, in Poplar, Pine and R Oak, and did customs runs fro 10' to 10,000'. I tracked al the materials and all the labor including stock prep, waste, knife grinding, etc for millions of l/f.
The upshot was that in 1988 dollars, as every foot came out of the machine, you could plunk a dime in a hat as pure, clear profit from the thing. On a 12,000 l/f day, that is $1,200.00 net profit, over and above the overhead and built-in 12% profit. $280,000 per year to buy other machines, upgrade facilities and a bonus for myself and others.
Forget the 5 year payback. If you can sell what comes out (a big "if"), you will pay for it in 6 months.
5/21/16 #13: Moulder investment ...
I've had a Weinig 5 head for quite a few years. Good machine, good support. It takes more space than what most would think. We don't make anything to stock, strictly custom orders. Like others have said, you need plenty of dust collection. W/O it you will get damaged moldings from recirculating chips. You need a way to quickly pull the trailer or truck from under the cyclone and get another in its place. If I were to buy another molder it would have two top heads, 6 head machine. I bought the optional higher HP motors, very glad I did.
I disagree with the idea that you don't need a profile grinder for custom moldings. Way too often a knife will pick up a nick while running. What then? W/O the grinder do you tear down and setup another, send the knives off and wait? (Customer waits!) With a grinder you are sharp again and back to running in 20 minutes.
Preparing the blanks: At a minimum you need a SL rip saw. Yes, you can do it with a jointer and table saw, or you can order your lumber straight lined & ripped. I've tried both. The SL will pay for itself quickly compared to the alternatives for a custom molding operation. An un-jointed molder will turn out quality moldings @ 35'/ minute. That's 2100'/ hour. Remember, it is only finish cutting with one of the knives.
We are a very small custom molding producer. It is a small part of what we do. Our molding area is about 5,000', often crowded. You will need at least one heavy shaper, preferably a tilt. We have a band resaw with tilting feed, nice but not absolutely required. Will you offer matching curved moldings also. Cut to length service? Profile sanding? Finishing? Rosettes, plinth blocks, curved corner blocks for the radius drywall corners, Curved crown, how will you make your templates?...
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