Message Thread:
Cement board mantle
12/29/18
A couple weeks ago I built and installed this mantle in a neighbors condo. I've had experience with the gas fireplaces in these condos so was concerned about overheating of the mantle head directly above the firebox.
My solution was to use Hardie Trimboard and their 3 1/2" crown. This gave me a fireproof (but not fire rated as Hardie products transfer heat) mantle head.
The vertical side legs are made of poplar. All materials meet the required firebox setbacks.......whether wood or cement board.
I spoke with both Benjamin Moore and Sherwin Williams tech support and found that most latex paints are rated to 200°F before failure. I was also told that above that they could fail but would not ignite.
Has anyone else worked with Hardie or other brands of cement board for architectural detail work?
Thanks,
BH Davis
View higher quality, full size image (3264 X 2448)
View higher quality, full size image (3264 X 2448)
12/29/18 #2: Cement board mantle ...
Oh.........I neglected to make one point I wanted feedback on as well.
I ended up using the best Benjamin Moore latex for the top coat. It was way too thin and runs while brushing it on were a significant issue. Then when it dried I had an extremely rough surface which you can see if you click on the image and blow it up. Next time I'm at their place I'll be sanding it out and trying to get a cleaner surface.
I think both the rough surface texture of the Hardie Trimboard as well as the issues with the paint caused this poor finish.
Any thoughts on this?
Thanks again,
BH Davis
12/30/18 #3: Cement board mantle ...
One wonders what happened to the real Bernie Davis, woodworker and lover of wood.....
Since it is obviously not the real Bernie that would try to make a mantel out of hardiplank, I can speak with freedom.
And Why? Is it that the Hardiplank will not catch fire, despite the fact that the images are not code compliant? Is it that this ultra valuable design will survive, even if the rest of the structure is gone?
This is about the ugliest fireplace/mantel thing I have ever seen. The excessive drive to economy has limited the brick to a minimum that looks like Wal-mart at its worst. Things apparently must now be made so cheaply as to no longer perform the function that were designed for. That all happened before the alleged Bernie got there.
There are nice, easy rules and guidelines to fireplace design that have been around for hundreds of years. Code requires 10" from the top of opening to combustible. More with projection. Good design (as found in the Wallace Nuttig books and others) can easily be found and adapted to the current situation.
Is it because no one wants to 'spend money' on the fireplace? Is it that no one cares or even knows what they look like? If we cannot produce well-designed and well built architectural woodwork, what good are we? If the best we can do - fake Bernie and others - is what we see in that photo, then we might as well all go home and get ready for flipping burgers.
If we cannot make attractive architectural details that reflect the evolutionary designs of the past while carrying it forward to the future, we should go to work in the Hardiplank factory.
View higher quality, full size image (1944 X 2592)
View higher quality, full size image (1944 X 2592)
12/30/18 #4: Cement board mantle ...
Now now David. Not every mass produced 1980's era condo complex can be developed as beautifully as your photos.....chuckle.........
And you are absolutely right about that fireplace design; it is just about gag me ugly. There are 24 of these in the complex which was built by a company with somewhat less than a stellar reputation.
I put a 100% wood mantle in another one of these units and it got so hot I had to have the gas fireplace installer come in, remove the gas unit and insulate the original wood firebox. That helped a lot. The problem is primarily the design of the gas insert units that have their circulation fans blowing into the top rail of the screen/grill door instead of through the screening. Very poor design. If it were not for those gas units a wood mantle would be fine.
I thought the use of the Hardie Trimboard was a clever idea when suggested to me by the gas fireplace dealer. It was certainly worth a try. As you well know a simple mantle like that........even made in cement board.......doesn't take long to build and install. It was a favor for a neighbor so money was not an issue.
The mantle does meet the 10" setback from the gas insert firebox and then some. That has a metal black surround though to fill the oversized gap of the original wood fireplace which makes it look like it does not meet the requirement.
I'd post a photo of the mantle I built for the other unit, which is a little more artistic so to speak, but I don't know if my ego could stand another bashing........LOL.
Thanks,
BH Davis
12/30/18 #5: Cement board mantle ...
Here's what these fireplaces look like as built in the 80's.
BH Davis
View higher quality, full size image (445 X 464)
12/31/18 #6: Cement board mantle ...
BH Davis: (if that is your real name)
While David Sochar makes some good aesthetic and practical points, there are situations where sometimes one confronts the reality of less than stellar construction methods, and millwork being one of the last things to go in, the collective shoddiness of construction methods makes for a less than optimal millwork environment, and thus limits one's aesthetic and practical choices.
While Hardiboard speaks to a certain level of desperation, I wonder if you might consider plaster moldings and architectural elements as an alternative. Most plaster components have a Class A fire rating, and are generally manufactured in patterns that reflect an architecturally correct style. And it has to paint more easily than Hardiboard.
DecoCraft comes to mind, I imagine there are others.
Hope this helps.
TonyF
https://www.decocraftusa.com/
12/31/18 #7: Cement board mantle ...
The question is.... where is the real Bernie, locked in a soundproof basement somewhere? I hope not.
But to the impostor, that seems a reasonable solution and within the limitations of the situation pretty good looking. Not sure on the paint. I guess time will tell!
12/31/18 #8: Cement board mantle ...
Tony,
That is a great idea and I wish I'd thought of it. I went to the site and it looks like a far better solution to the cement board products.
As to "my real name" I'll only say that I've been lurking around Woodweb since just about the beginning and believe many of the people here know me as either BH or Bernie.
BH Davis
12/31/18 #9: Cement board mantle ...
And I guess now is as good a time as any to officially state what many already know.
I sold BH Davis Company in the spring of 2016 and retired a year later. The curved mouldings are still being made by my same crew of craftsmen under leadership of the new owner whom I've known since he was a child over 40 years ago.
So I'm still out here and enjoying retirement while using my newly setup home shop. I had to go out and purchase enough machines to do this as a life time's collection of tools and machinery went with the sale of the business.
So while I'm no longer associated with B.H. Davis Company I do totally and completely remain B.H. Davis..........BH to my close friends.
BH Davis
12/31/18 #10: Cement board mantle ...
"Gag me ugly" I agree! The Hardiplank is actually an improvement. Why people buy such ugly things (the 80's bare mantel look) is beyond my understanding. It could be that consumerism blinds us or the notion that people - the masses - have never learned that things can be better at no additional cost. Or if it is low cost, you don't want it - like bargain basement heart surgery.
Appropriate materials work like appropriate design. As soon as one breaks into new materials, they risk losing the essence of what they are building. Wood mantels have a long history, and many have enjoyed building them out of wood.
Morgan Millwork (Osh Kosh, WI) used to have a nice line of mantels, adjustable size, that a carpenter could put in in a half day, and he, the mantel and the project all looked good. They had clever cope parts that could be located as needed, with excess cut off.
And taking advice from the 'gas fireplace salesman'? Holy moly! a 'gas fireplace salesman' is in the same category as 'plaid pants salesman' or 'used mule salesman'. They have no training in design, don't know that it matters or even exists. Therefore, they have no resistance to recommending whatever. Bad proportions? Disparate materials? Extension of poor original design?
And why is it our job to give a customer ("?") a top line product when they 1. Do not respect the craft. 2. Do not respect the centuries of design and evolution that went into the product. 3. Do not respect the maker. 4. Fear that the maker - me - will end up living in a house bigger than theirs.
12/31/18 #11: Cement board mantle ...
Bernie congratulations on the sale of the business. Many people just sell the equipment and walk away. That is a testament to what you built. Enjoy your retirement.
12/31/18 #12: Cement board mantle ...
Hi “BH”,
Stick with the curved work, straight is to easy for you. Stay out of condos unless you own them. The saying you can’t polish a pile of poo, but you can paint it doesn’t apply to fiber cement. It will always look rough.
You should take it as a complement when you get a Razzie(worst movie) award on WW. It means your previous work was outstanding. We will wait patiently for the real BH Davis to stand up and put a curved mantle piece on that ugly pile of bricks.
1/2/19 #13: Cement board mantle ...
Bernie - Congratulations on the sale and retirement! I always knew you were a good, competent woodworker and business owner - your contributions and participation here at WW over the years place you among the top. Now that you have made the Grand Slam, or Trifecta, or whatever, we can say you have found the level of success we all are looking for. Again, congratulations are in order.
However, a little retirement does not mean you go play with Hardiplank. You can still say "no", yes? You know by now, but that stuff is not wood! Hell on the tablesaw, and even worse in the planer.
This is your opportunity to make trucks and cribs for grandkids, the table you always wanted, replace that old window. Stretch yourself and your abilities, with no stress or customers. Get some cool woods or veneers, find something you thought you would never make, and make it. Mostly, use your wood knowledge to have fun, be productive, and share with others. I envy you.
And anything you can share to help others walking your path will be appreciated, as it comes from one who has tread that road.
1/2/19 #14: Cement board mantle ...
I dont have any comment on the design, or choice of materials or their acceptability/suitability. I come from a long background in the residential GC world and would be financially bankrupt (you often stay near that point anyway in that world) if I were to object to, or refuse, work on a moral high ground of materials, design, and budget. You often times wind up doing the best you can given the entirety of the circumstances.
Your paint point is one that we have dealt with for a long time as we were always exclusively Ben Moore but many years ago their formulations changed and pretty much overnight we went from receiving material that was so thick and heavenly to use that your stir stick would easily stand up in the can as it was a consistency a bit thinner than sour cream, to their top of the line (Regal) being as thin as the high end Sherwins, P&L, and so on. It drastically affected hiding and application. We were so accustomed to the thicker formula and really had a hard time adjusting. This all happened right around the release of their Aura line which was at the initial stages of this ridiculous "paint and primer in one" deal. The Aura was so thin it was very difficult to work with initially but you had to learn to fly it on extremely fast, just barely as thick as you could get it without sagging, in a very deliberate manner, and then force yourself to never touch it again. No going back and tipping off, no going back and tweaking a litte area a few minutes later when you spotted it. You had one shot and you had to leave it alone. If you got that one shot right, it would lay down and be beautiful. If you missed it, it meant an entire second coat.
If your customer is happy, and you will be happy with a bit smoother finish, go back, scuff it, and fly on a halo coat and be happy. I envy your position of retirement. Dont know if I will ever get there.
1/2/19 #15: Cement board mantle ...
Mark - I think one can (should?, must!) stand on the moral high ground (whatever that really means) and say no. I and others have spent their creative lives rejecting the crazy, dangerous and just plain stupid things that builders, owners, design professionals and others have come up with. Nothing wrong with that. I'll take chances and accept challenges, but at my discretion, my parameters, my will - my business.
Bending that 'moral' high ground, and accepting Hardiplank (Does hardiplank bend?) or similar will make it easier to accept the next abomination. Once done, it is easier and easier to accept crap, and pretty soon the world will look like it looks today. Just like we have lost the last thousand years of design and human advancement.
Looking at it the other way, if you have to do whatever the customer wants (prostitution) to just barely stay in business, something terrible is wrong. I suggest you back way up and take a long hard look at what you do and why. We do not, and never will, be obliged to make a thing for a price the customer supplies. We need to know what OUR purpose is, our motivation, and stand by it. We do not sit at the hiway intersection flying a piece of ragged cardboard, then hop to as needed. We should have our pride, our confidence secured such that we can easily walk from a proposal or a "idea" from others.
This provides and excellent example tooters in our work, and to the customers. Do you think some of our worst customers go into the dentist's office and begin with " I need you to use a Number 4.5 mm left 30 degree hook to pull..." If they do it there, then they might try it with you. Don't start.
1/2/19 #16: Cement board mantle ...
My lord David. Your response gives me great pause. I dont know you personally but you have been a massive sage in my life with regards to how I move through the "wood world".
That said, we all have to operate in the confines and parameters we have to live in. It feels to me like making excuses but if I were in a different market I may well look at this entire thing differently and be calling myself a sell out.
I would (will) be left sitting in my shop whittling toothpicks waiting for the one or two customers a year (if that) that are willing to compensate me for your level of work in my area. It simply doesnt happen in million dollar homes much less some goofy restaurant door front. It just doesnt happen here.
So to BH's scenario, he is trying to help out a neighbor, tread some new ground (rightly or wrongly), and have some fun as compared to his life of having to look to making money all the time.
Sounds enjoyable to me
Ive looked to profitability for 30 years and will likely sell my shop for scrap value.
I fight the wood fight every single day of the week. Its what my business model was founded on. Its my own fault but the market I am in, doesnt, may never, likely will never, compensate for that.
The high end homes and businesses in my area area being populated with trim and material from home depot and lowes. Furniture is moved in from the same outlets that are shipping furniture to the single wides and double wides (not to take away from those who live in those).
Standing on a moral high ground with regards to wood is getting harder and harder (and way harder). I have had a business model that can compete with the home centers for dog sh)t cabs for 4 years now (thankfully weve never built one) and people expect the local shop to be LESS than then dog sh*t home center.
Its all about the world you live it.. and I guess what youve got in the bank. I cant afford to dig my heels in an stand a ground. I have to keep cash flowing. Ive been dealing with customers goofy ideas for 30 years. If I told them to go pi)) up a rope the instant I heard a ridiculous idea.. Id be bankrupt by now.
1/2/19 #17: Cement board mantle ...
PS.. and the uncompensated time it takes to lead your customer to the better decision (because they will only accept their own and are unwilling to accept that their original plan was suicidally flawed) is simply too much to bury in the cost of the job.
1/2/19 #18: Cement board mantle ...
Bernie,
We have used Ceram type products when microwaves go at cabinets that are 24" above the range as an approved barrier in graduate housing
A-
Ceramic-Fiber-Millboard
1/3/19 #19: Cement board mantle ...
David,
A lot of the equity you have built on this site with your contributions is taking a severe hit with your statements on this thread. Your "moral high ground" is nothing more than your opinion.
"Mark - I think one can (should?, must!) stand on the moral high ground (whatever that really means) and say no. I and others have spent their creative lives rejecting the crazy, dangerous and just plain stupid things that builders, owners, design professionals and others have come up with."
Why do you get to decide what is "crazy, dangerous and just plain stupid"?
How many people work with/for you? Of those how many make an above average living? Do you cover their medical insurance, have retirement plans set up that you contribute to, provide company lunches 1-2 times per month?
Our company provides all of the above and then some for 17 employees. This is my moral high ground, and if I need to provide a mantle to a client, differently than how I would do it for myself, then that is what I do.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, as am I, but please remember that is truly all it is.
1/3/19 #20: Cement board mantle ...
I think its a phenomenal opinion to hold and maintain if you can. In my area I cant. We have tried, and continue to try, every single day but at the end of the day you have to be flexible to keep work moving through the shop.
I have some connections in the mountains of NC where they are building 1-10 million dollar homes and even there its not uncommon for work to be far far less than anything that would be deemed "moral" as it pertains to this thread. Stuff in multi million dollar homes that raises my lowly eyebrows would blow the top of the heads of the high end shops. But they cash the checks and move on to the next one.
1/3/19 #21: Cement board mantle ...
David created a position in the industry that is admired. Unfortunately, the quantity of work of that level is simply not available. The vast majority of shop guys I have met do not have the craftsman required to do those projects justice.
Obviously, The guy formerly know as BH, tried to solve a couple of frustrating design issues. Many of those projects are learning experiences. I’ve layed out a few similar things on paper, which turn out to be ugly at full scale. I learned to draw them full scale on ply to avoid those ugly mistakes.
We all need to pay the bills. I do as few of the soul stealing projects as possible. Unfortunately, they often get thrown in with the good work.
1/4/19 #22: Cement board mantle ...
I am not sure this is a soul stealing project.
There was a bad situation that he came up with a sound solution that looks pretty good within the constraints of the situation.
The goal of a business is to make money. That's it. If you are a non profit then you can save the world and sooth your soul.
There is a big difference between sticking to making whatever you make within the design and engineering system you have defined and holding the high ground on what you consider good design and pure product. We design and build beautiful products People ask us to modify our proportional pleasing designs and turn them ugly. We build ugly if you pay your bills. To that same customer we will sell lots of other product. It is all within our design and engineering standards.
I am guessing David is a purest. He does not use screws, MDF, Plywood, a circular saw... Its all hand planes, chisels and handsaws. Otherwise he is not a woodworker and tears the soul of the wood out with his newfangled tools.
Its nice to draw the line conveniently where you want it.
I support many families with my business. We build what we build, how we build it. We will not be dictated the engineering but we are willing to look at new materials if it does a better job.
Most people are not willing to pay for something they can't see and don't understand. As a business owner with responsibility to your family and employees it is your job to figure out the difference.
What do you call a company with the greatest product in the world and no sales.
Out of Business.
1/5/19 #23: Cement board mantle ...
"Trim from the bottom, encourage the top."
A simple mantra describing how we want to loose some customers at the bottom of the group - too cheap, slow pay, bad design, bad job management, ignorant. And encourage and attract new customers at the top - good designs, good management, easy pay hoops to jump, repeat business.
This is simple and basic. One guy 40 years ago told me "You do not want the customers you have today in 30 years. You want all new ones by then".
I am a purist of my own design. I study good design so I can incorporate it into the work. I don't like Kreg screws for the most part. Not so much just because they are what they are, but because too many people rely too much on them. Kregs will work fine in some situations, but will work poorly in most situations that people are raving over. Like cabinet doors assembled with Kreg Screws - come on! That is a joke from the start!
If I am at the high ground, then it is because that is what I aimed for. It is no accident. Someone not aiming for the high ground will never attain it. I don't like the word 'moral' interjected into this conversation since morality - real morality - has nothing to do with the conversation.
1/8/19 #24: Cement board mantle ...
I think we all (or likely 99% of us) practice the trim from the bottom and encourage the top philosophy. I dont think anyone is aiming to say not to steer your customers into the smarter choice. I have fought that war for 30 years in the home building world gingerly, and sometimes firmly, coercing the customer into making the better choice. That said, its more often than not not going to be the "best" choice. You fight your fights and take your gains where you can get them.
I would love to have the options to just say no and sit in my shop. An option none of us have. But I have wood purists swing through the shop aghast at putting stain on Cherry when thats what the architect spec'd. The job carried the shop for 5 months. Its a balance as Im sure you are very well aware.
Each persons cutoff boundary is at a different spot an is likely moving target dependant directly on how much work they have on deposit. More, and you turn stuff away, less (or none) and unless youve got a bank roll set aside, most will tend to move the goal post a bit.
Im sure its everyones dream to be able to only do "the work that...." but its sadly not the case across the board.
1/8/19 #25: Cement board mantle ...
If you aim for ground that is too high you end up standing on a very small piece of ground. When the economy takes a dump which it always does it may wash away some or all of that ground you are standing away and leave you stranded. This gets to my earlier post about building a business. It has to be large enough so that when things go sideways there is enough business left to keep you going. If you structure your expenses correctly you can survive. That means limit debt.
I like a large diverse customer base. We cater to the top end of the market but its within reason.
And pocket screws are awesome. No one makes doors with them, where did that come from? We use them to hold a doweled joint in place while the glue drys so we can continue assembly. Face frames with a little glue, magical.
1/21/19 #26: Cement board mantle ...
I read this post at the beginning of the year gave me a jolt a wakeup call to aim higher .Thank you David for the time in those well thought out responses
I think it’s getting better for custom shops but most people IQ’s on wood is low .I do agree it’s hard to pay a high wage
3/5/19 #27: Cement board mantle ...
I'd been away for awhile from this site and threads; and then stumble onto this.....
First, Bernie, congrats on your passing the torch of your business on to those you work with; seen and installed your products for years, hope that continues. And hats off to coming up with a viable solution to your neighbors fireplace- I know the very trouble you faced with the gas fireplace, damn things are a PIA to work around, no wonder codes are what they are these days. I only offer one suggestion, next time( if there is a next time, a few folks around here want you to commit Hari Kari now) try coating fibre cement board with a sand-able filler, setting type taping compound might work.
David, get off your high horse- Bernie came up with a simple and viable solution with off the rack stuff to dressing up a pretty fugly fireplace appliance and will sleep knowing he didn't put fuel in front of a fire. Not every job can be a monument to ones greatness, despite what you think. I'm with MarkB, Bill, and a few others here I'm sure- we're in business to earn a living, it's 2019, and times, methods and materials change- a hard fact but it's what I've observed in my 64 years. To denigrate ones abilities,clients and tastes out of the side of your mouth is below the level of what we're here for.
You know your chit for sure, but so do many, many others and while they may not do what you would, they're every bit as correct
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