Architectural Woodworking

You are not logged in. [ Login ] Why log in
(NOTE: Login is not required to post)

Post a Response
The staff at WOODWEB assume no responsibility for the accuracy, content, or outcome of any posting transmitted at any WOODWEB Forum. Participants should undertake the use of machinery, materials and methods discussed after considerate evaluation, and at their own risk.
Your Name:
Your Website:
Email Address:
Subject: Re: Exterior Door Finish Issues - Epifanes

Message:

(read message guidelines).
Note: Do not use the below fields to advertise your business - only for links related to the discussion.
Thread Related Link URL:
Thread Related Link Title:
  To "point" to an image (picture) from another website, provide the URL (Web Address) of the file ( include ONE reference to http:// )
Thread Related Image URL:

Date of your Birth:

Upload a Thread Related File:
File Types: Image (gif-jpg-png-bmp), PDF, Sketchup, Video (mov avi wmv mpeg mpg mp4 ogg). (Image Upload Tips)

I have read the Site User Agreement and agree with the Terms

  <= Check to receive e-mail notification of responses

Message Thread:

Exterior Door Finish Issues - Epifanes

6/29/20       
Chad Lueken

Website: http://www.adamsarch.com

We built a door from Black Walnut last year, 2019, for a home. The door was installed in September. We provided the door finished with Epifanes Rapid Coat product (Marine Grade Varnish).

In the beginning of June 2020, the homeowner discovered the finish bubbling. Please see pictures. The finisher put approximately 6 - 7 coats on this door.

Has anyone using Epifanes or other exterior grade finishes experienced this?

Anyone thoughts on why this is happening and what would be an appropriate way to fix the issue?

Any other suggestions for exterior grade finishes for these applications?

Thanks, Chad


View higher quality, full size image (2016 X 1512)


View higher quality, full size image (1512 X 2016)


View higher quality, full size image (768 X 1024)

6/29/20       #3: Exterior Door Finish Issues - Epifa ...
Fred Frehner Member

Website: http://www.rivercity.ca

Hi Chad,
We use D-Dur ( by Chemcraft) for clear coating in well protected areas. Is this only happening on the exterior side? Is it bubbling below all the clear coats or is it separating between layers of the varnish?
Is the inside finished with the same product?
Without knowing anything about this situation and not using the same finish product are, My first guess be.
Moister trying to escape from the interior of the building or the wood itself. perhaps from glue in the mortice and tenon joints?
Looks like the attached pictures are close to joints.

6/29/20       #4: Exterior Door Finish Issues - Epifa ...
Mark B Member

I dont know a lot about building exterior doors but the pictures look to me to be at the base and seeing what looks to be a a simple panel raise and cope and stick cant help but to wonder if water is pouring in those raised panels at the base, being sucked in, and trying to get out.

That image showing the panel raise in the sticking looks like a nightmare to me.

6/29/20       #5: Exterior Door Finish Issues - Epifa ...
Tom Gardiner

It might help to offer details of construction and finish prep.
I don't think this is a moisture issue. It appears that the construction method is walnut skins on a core. The bubbles appear to be in locations where the walnut grain is showing end grain like pores. Is it possible that these are areas where lamination glue bled to the surface? The finish may not adhere to the glue saturated wood in those locations. Other areas of lift are in the corners at the base of the side lights - also an area where excess glue could lie on the surface.

6/29/20       #6: Exterior Door Finish Issues - Epifa ...
rich c.

Almost looks like something was spilled on the stone or some cleaning chemical? Haze on the sidelight bases and also a random spill look on that stone threshold by the door. Almost looks like bleach on the stone. Going to be hard to prove, but that pattern on the threshold looks like strong evidence to me!

6/30/20       #7: Exterior Door Finish Issues - Epifa ...
Chad Lueken

The doors are made from pattern grade mahogany. Stile & rail construction. We build our stave core with edge bands and then glue the veneers(skins) onto the core. I don't believe that glue is seeping through the veneer as we don't apply more than needed when making our stiles and rails.

There are no bubbles on the end grain with the exception on the bottom of the sidelight.

I don't believe anything was spilled onto the stone sill or the door as I put my hand over it to feel it. It did not have a different texture and seemed to be part of the characteristics of the stone.

We did notice that the bubbles only occur halfway up the door. Which leads me to think that it may be an issue with the sun hitting the door in the late afternoon. Would still think a marine grade varnish would be able to handle that.

6/30/20       #8: Exterior Door Finish Issues - Epifa ...
Fred Frehner Member

Hi Chad,
We do see problems due to sun and heat in the Canadian Rockies. I have never seen it
in the form of bubbles. It mostly happens due to wood movement below the finish, like separation of joints or glue line failure due to heat.

6/30/20       #9: Exterior Door Finish Issues - Epifa ...
Chad Lueken

Thanks for your comments Fred -

You would think that if there was going to be movement, it would occur where the stiles and the rails meet or movement in the panel (expanding & contracting). The bubbles are showing up in the middle of the parts (stiles & rails).

What product do you use for finishing an exterior wood door?

Chad

6/30/20       #10: Exterior Door Finish Issues - Epifa ...
Fred Frehner Member

Hi Chad,
For exterior clear coats we use a product by Chemcraft called D-Dur. I is a older product we have used it for quite some time.
The good part about it is it has a fair bit of flex, that can be helpful. The bad part is the slow curing time.

6/30/20       #11: Exterior Door Finish Issues - Epifa ...
David R Sochar Member

We use Sikkens Cetol for our exterior finishes, almost without exception. We have never had a problem like what you have. We prefer it because when the finish is aged or faded, it is easy to recoat. If for any reason the finish has to be removed, it is relatively easy compared to the epoxy finishes and others.

Like Rich, I also think it is something spilled on the wood, also spilled on the stone. Water will raise the grain and you will feel it, but bleach, acid, and many liquids will not raise grain, but will repel the adhesion of the finish. I think it so obvious as to hardly question if it could be anything else (though you are right to investigate - one never knows.)

Was the work finished on site, or in your shop?

6/30/20       #12: Exterior Door Finish Issues - Epifa ...
TonyF

Chad:

I also do not build many exterior doors, for precisely this reason.

Nonetheless, I agree with Rich C. that something was spilled onto the stone threshold, and it looks like it may have gotten onto the door. It appears that the staining is mostly on the threshold at the active door leaf, and it also looks like something was spilled and then something else was used in attempt to clean it.

If that is a block nailed to the porch deck that is securing the right end of the door threshold with the shim, I would wonder if something like muriatic acid was used towards the end of mortar cleanup, and some splashed onto the door. The liquid trails run down onto the sub-step, and it appears that some attempt was made to wipe it off of the horizontal surfaces of the millwork at the sidelights, but perhaps no attempts to wipe the splashing on the vertical surfaces.

Or perhaps a cleaning agent was used to try to clean up whatever the brown staining is on the active leaf threshold. The pattern of finish "defect" looks more like a spill or splash, rather than something occurring because of the exposure of the finish to the weather.

At least that is what it looks like to me.
TonyF

6/30/20       #13: Exterior Door Finish Issues - Epifa ...
Mark B Member

Crazy things happen but there looked to be a blister at the mid rail on the hinge stile of the right door and its pretty high up and all by itself and they all looked to me to be right at the joinery which seemed interesting. Of course any cleaning could have splashed/gotten anywhere.

6/30/20       #14: Exterior Door Finish Issues - Epifa ...
Mark

I wonder how deep the blisters go into the finish- between coats or to the sealer used or even under the sealer
It looks to me like its contamination during the finishing process.

6/30/20       #15: Exterior Door Finish Issues - Epifa ...
Chad Lueken

Since many people are convinced something was splashed onto the stone sill I called the homeowner. He sent me a picture of the door after it was installed. He confirmed that the stone sill had those characteristics in it and something did not spilled onto the stone sill. You can see it, if you zoom in on the picture. Chad


View higher quality, full size image (1024 X 768)

6/30/20       #16: Exterior Door Finish Issues - Epifa ...
Alan F. Member

Can you get someone (preferably chemical technician) from Epifanes to look at it and give their opinion?
A-

6/30/20       #17: Exterior Door Finish Issues - Epifa ...
Mark B Member

There is one thing for sure, blisters aside, your photos are far nicer than that one and its a stunningly beautiful door. The more you look at it the nicer it is.

I would have guessed moisture for sure but the blister on the right stile right door is odd. But there is a lot of character and visible voids that look great though you'd wonder what moisture/water they would allow in or allow to wick up.

Guesses only.

6/30/20       #18: Exterior Door Finish Issues - Epifa ...
rescraft

x2 for Sikkens Cetol. I stripped and refinished with Cetol (forget the color) on three sets of French Doors, less that a mile from the ocean. Six years later, they look like the day I did them.

6/30/20       #19: Exterior Door Finish Issues - Epifa ...
rich c.

The image that made me think of a spill was the close up in the 2nd picture of the original post. If that isn't a spill, what is the smeared look on the horizontal board next to the stone? And why is it heavier in the corners. It's completely different than the blisters.

6/30/20       #20: Exterior Door Finish Issues - Epifa ...
Mark B Member

I saw that as dust

6/30/20       #21: Exterior Door Finish Issues - Epifa ...
Chad Lueken

The Epifanes representative claims that it is due to extreme heat.

Chad

6/30/20       #22: Exterior Door Finish Issues - Epifa ...
Keith Newton

Well, Chad did he say not to use their product somewhere that gets hot?

I have seen this in a Western exposure door painted dark green. My assessment, and I'm no chemist, was that the heat caused the air within the door to expand. Most finishes I think will or should allow the air to escape, but I wondered if some of the new formulations may be too impermeable, and the pressure inside was greater than the adhesion between coats.

The paint and bubbles I'm talking about were still very flexible even after several years, and were the top SWP formula. Yes we all want a finish that can expand and contract with the changing moisture content in our exterior doors, but maybe there needs to be a bit less elasticity, or better adhesion between coats.

Maybe better sanding between coats, giving more tooth for the following coats would prevent this. But probably most of the sanding is done after the sealer, who sands between the final coats? Maybe there was a short window of opportunity for cross linking that closed from waiting too long due to rain or weekend.

7/1/20       #23: Exterior Door Finish Issues - Epifa ...
David R Sochar Member

I will bet lunch that the bubbles are not from heat. Try using an infra-red thermometer on it when the sun is 90 degrees from the face, and clear sky. I say you don't get over 180 if that. What does Epiphanes say is the maximum heat?

If moisture from outside, then the sidelight bottom rail cut at the sill would blister all the way across. It is not moisture migrating up thru - too perfect of a drip.

If you finished in your shop, then quiz everyone. You may need to use electricity, but I bet someone will fess up. Those drops are too perfect, and no reason for being where they are, other than random. It just might be Mountain Dew.

Same if it was finished on site, you just have a larger pool to interrogate.

7/1/20       #24: Exterior Door Finish Issues - Epifa ...
rescraft

If you can peel one of those blisters, that may tell you whether the bubble is on top of the stain, or in one of the topcoats. It looks like it may be dripped contamination between topcoats. Possibly sweat?

7/1/20       #25: Exterior Door Finish Issues - Epifa ...
Fred Frehner Member

Website: http://www.rivercity.ca

Hi Chad,

We did have occasional contamination from silicon, oil or just dust. It was always visible and reacting within a few days not months. But we never use varnish.

7/2/20       #26: Exterior Door Finish Issues - Epifa ...
Keith Newton

I may be wrong, but I thought with silicone contamination, the finish would contract off / fish-eye while the varnish was still wet.

7/2/20       #27: Exterior Door Finish Issues - Epifa ...
Adam

The only way that was caused by heat is with a torch.

Epifanes is one of the best varnishes in the world. It’s on millions of boats sitting in full sun that would hit 120F.

If it was a heat problem, it would not be so isolated. I believe it is either a contamination issue below or above. Heat may have made it worse, but it is not the cause.

If there was enough heat to cause finish bubbling then there would be structural changes in your joinery.

We see heat problems on door that are painted black with full sun.

Beautiful doors by the way.

7/3/20       #28: Exterior Door Finish Issues - Epifa ...
David R Sochar Member

Chad - Have you peeled off one of those blisters yet?

How is is it shaking out - will you just refinish in place?

Lots of questions....

7/3/20       #29: Exterior Door Finish Issues - Epifa ...
Alan F. Member

Would it cost less to make some temporary doors to secure the opening while you took the doors back to the shop to refinish in a controlled environment.

I would talk to an independent lab and see if they could analyze something off the surface to determine cause.

I think at this point determining the cause if they can't scrap something off the surface and test would be more expensive than repairs. A simple test might be 2-5k .

Your insurance might pay for the test.

7/6/20       #30: Exterior Door Finish Issues - Epifa ...
Cajun Craftsman Member

That looks like a common problem we see on exterior finishes and epoxies. We do a lot of exterior work including boats. Our finishes haven't had any problems since we started using Smith's Multiwoodprime before top coating. Some of the topcoats we have used on boats are Epifanes, Bristol and Awlgrip including pigmented products. On furniture using SW nitrocellulose lacquers, conversion varnish and 2 part polyurethanes. I've used it on exterior home repairs under latex paints with no problem.


View higher quality, full size image (1024 X 768)


View higher quality, full size image (770 X 1368)

Multiwoodprime

7/7/20       #31: Exterior Door Finish Issues - Epifa ...
John Member

My guess is it was contamination during the finishing process. Had it been something that got spilled or splashed on the door it would have left runs unless it was something really viscous like grease. At least on the door the spots are nearly perfectly round.

I've had blisters occur with outdoor furniture finished with Epifanes Marine Varnish, but only after 2 years and it always started on some edge radius, never in the middle of a flat section. I don't believe those spots were caused by heat.

The best door finish I've used is the same as has already been recommended, Cetol Door and Window finish. It's now a PPG product, but still the same great formula. I put it on a completely exposed Sapele stave core door that faces due West. 3 years later it still looks new. It is super easy to apply, too, though it takes a while to dry/cure.

John

7/8/20       #32: Exterior Door Finish Issues - Epifa ...
Chas

I may have hit the post button before finishing this message, if so, please forgive me if you're reading this twice.....OK, sometimes I have seen the job of gluing up core blocks or staves get left to someone new. The thought is they're just gluing up blocks and it can be anything so what the heck? Well, perhaps they end up using the two by four over there next to the outside dust collector without knowing to check for moisture content. Or, and I have also seen this, the person gluing up the core blocks wants to do a really good job, so they use all kinds of yellow glue (hence way too much moisture). Either way, the moisture gets trapped inside the door and bubbles the finish after a really hot summer. You tend not to see this in wooden masts and marine work as the construction is different. Only in core block doors do you see such a division of labor. Please understand, I do not mean to criticize, only to tell you what I have seen and your doors are just gorgeous by the way!

 

Buy & Sell Exchanges | Forums | Galleries | Site Map

FORUM GUIDELINES: Please review the guidelines below before posting at WOODWEB's Interactive Message Boards (return to top)

  • WOODWEB is a professional industrial woodworking site. Hobbyist and homeowner woodworking questions are inappropriate.
  • Messages should be kept reasonably short and on topic, relating to the focus of the forum. Responses should relate to the original question.
  • A valid email return address must be included with each message.
  • Advertising is inappropriate. The only exceptions are the Classified Ads Exchange, Machinery Exchange, Lumber Exchange, and Job Opportunities and Services Exchange. When posting listings in these areas, review the posting instructions carefully.
  • Subject lines may be edited for length and clarity.
  • "Cross posting" is not permitted. Choose the best forum for your question, and post your question at one forum only.
  • Messages requesting private responses will be removed - Forums are designed to provide information and assistance for all of our visitors. Private response requests are appropriate at WOODWEB's Exchanges and Job Opportunities and Services.
  • Messages that accuse businesses or individuals of alleged negative actions or behavior are inappropriate since WOODWEB is unable to verify or substantiate the claims.
  • Posts with the intent of soliciting answers to surveys are not appropriate. Contact WOODWEB for more information on initiating a survey.
  • Excessive forum participation by an individual upsets the balance of a healthy forum atmosphere. Individuals who excessively post responses containing marginal content will be considered repeat forum abusers.
  • Responses that initiate or support inappropriate and off-topic discussion of general politics detract from the professional woodworking focus of WOODWEB, and will be removed.
  • Participants are encouraged to use their real name when posting. Intentionally using another persons name is prohibited, and posts of this nature will be removed at WOODWEB's discretion.
  • Comments, questions, or criticisms regarding Forum policies should be directed to WOODWEB's Systems Administrator
    (return to top).

    Carefully review your message before clicking on the "Send Message" button - you will not be able to revise the message once it has been sent.

    You will be notified of responses to the message(s) you posted via email. Be sure to enter your email address correctly.

    WOODWEB's forums are a highly regarded resource for professional woodworkers. Messages and responses that are crafted in a professional and civil manner strengthen this resource. Messages that do not reflect a professional tone reduce the value of our forums.

    Messages are inappropriate when their content: is deemed libelous in nature or is based on rumor, fails to meet basic standards of decorum, contains blatant advertising or inappropriate emphasis on self promotion (return to top).

    Libel:   Posts which defame an individual or organization, or employ a tone which can be viewed as malicious in nature. Words, pictures, or cartoons which expose a person or organization to public hatred, shame, disgrace, or ridicule, or induce an ill opinion of a person or organization, are libelous.

    Improper Decorum:   Posts which are profane, inciting, disrespectful or uncivil in tone, or maliciously worded. This also includes the venting of unsubstantiated opinions. Such messages do little to illuminate a given topic, and often have the opposite effect. Constructive criticism is acceptable (return to top).

    Advertising:   The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not an advertising venue. Companies participating in a Forum discussion should provide specific answers to posted questions. WOODWEB suggests that businesses include an appropriately crafted signature in order to identify their company. A well meaning post that seems to be on-topic but contains a product reference may do your business more harm than good in the Forum environment. Forum users may perceive your references to specific products as unsolicited advertising (spam) and consciously avoid your web site or services. A well-crafted signature is an appropriate way to advertise your services that will not offend potential customers. Signatures should be limited to 4-6 lines, and may contain information that identifies the type of business you're in, your URL and email address (return to top).

    Repeated Forum Abuse: Forum participants who repeatedly fail to follow WOODWEB's Forum Guidelines may encounter difficulty when attempting to post messages.

    There are often situations when the original message asks for opinions: "What is the best widget for my type of shop?". To a certain extent, the person posting the message is responsible for including specific questions within the message. An open ended question (like the one above) invites responses that may read as sales pitches. WOODWEB suggests that companies responding to such a question provide detailed and substantive replies rather than responses that read as a one-sided product promotion. It has been WOODWEB's experience that substantive responses are held in higher regard by our readers (return to top).

    The staff of WOODWEB assume no responsibility for the accuracy, content, or outcome of any posting transmitted at WOODWEB's Message Boards. Participants should undertake the use of machinery, materials and methods discussed at WOODWEB's Message Boards after considerate evaluation, and at their own risk. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages it deems inappropriate. (return to top)


  • Forum Posting Help
    Your Name The name you enter in this field will be the name that appears with your post or response (return to form).
    Your Website Personal or business website links must point to the author's website. Inappropriate links will be removed without notice, and at WOODWEB's sole discretion. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    E-Mail Address Your e-mail address will not be publicly viewable. Forum participants will be able to contact you using a contact link (included with your post) that is substituted for your actual address. You must include a valid email address in this field. (return to form)
    Subject Subject may be edited for length and clarity. Subject lines should provide an indication of the content of your post. (return to form)
    Thread Related Link and Image Guidelines Thread Related Links posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should point to locations that provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related Link that directs visitors to an area with inappropriate content will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    Thread Related File Uploads Thread Related Files posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. Video Files: acceptable video formats are: .MOV .AVI .WMV .MPEG .MPG .MP4 (Image Upload Tips)   If you encounter any difficulty when uploading video files, E-mail WOODWEB for assistance. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related File that contains inappropriate content will be removed, and uploaded files that are not directly related to the message thread will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links, files, or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    Doucet Machinery
    Sponsors

    Become a Sponsor today!