Message Thread:
Oversized Exterior 1 Lite Doors
8/16/21
Website: http://kalawood.com
A recent inquiry from a client has resulted in the attached sketch of a door. The door itself is 48" x 108" in size. The whole thing is ~7' x 16'. It's overall size doesn't bother me a whole lot (mostly worried about fitting it in the shop and moving it around), but the size of the door bothers me a bit. I've built barn doors much bigger, but never a hinged swinging door. The whole thing is going to feature triple pane glass with art glass inserts making up the middle pane. The geometric circle in the middle of the door is actually my own addition to the design (the circle feature originally being a design in the glass), which I'm not sure the client will accept. I've explained my reasons to the client for wanting it, but I'm not sure they will go for it.
The door itself will be made of either white oak or sepele. They would like to paint the door white with the finish being smooth in the end, but I'm not sure I can find a close-grained wood that is suitable for exterior door manufacturing. The door is going to be installed facing east in a well treed area, so I'm not too worried about exposure, but the whole thing has to survive -40 degree C to +40 degree C seasonal shifts. We are located in Saskatchewan, Canada.
The door will be 2-1/4" thick with 6" stiles, 10" kick rail, and 6" top rail. The stiles and rails will be stave cored, 1/4" skins each side. I typically use 3" x 6" floating tenons, 2 in the kick rail each side and 1 in the top rail. I would put two more in the circle if it is approved by the client. The skins will be 1/4" sawn. The sticking for the door will be square, with 3/4"d x 1-1/4"t tongue and groove.
The IGUs will be 1-1/4" thick to match, inserted after construction, siliconed in place (with a ton of silicone) with a molding retainer.
3 points or more on the hardware, I haven't talked to my supplier to see what they would recommend yet.
So, um... basically I'm looking for validation on this. My worry is that the door will sag and that the silicone holding the panel in place won't provide sufficient strength over time to resist the weight.
Please advise and share your opinions.
Thanks.
8/17/21 #2: Oversized Exterior 1 Lite Doors ...
What is the weight and type of glass? 16' bothers me for wind load. The circle looks way out of place. It appears to have a modern style appearance, but that circle in the middle speaks of modern Victorian?
8/17/21 #3: Oversized Exterior 1 Lite Doors ...
Wind loading? Huh. I hadn't thought of that. That's a point worth investigating.
Agreed about the circle. Artistically and esthetically it's supposed to be art deco. Its position is based on the customers spec and it obviously needs some work before sign off. The conversation should be confined to the structural points in question.
How would you deal with the wind loading?
8/18/21 #4: Oversized Exterior 1 Lite Doors ...
Christopher:
Having more of the specifics might be helpful. For instance, how much will the door with the glass installed weigh?
That would have an impact on the hardware selection. I have liked continuous geared hinges (Roton) for applications such as this; while some do not like the aesthetics of the hinge, it does what it is supposed to do. Your hardware guy might have a better solution, but will also have the same questions that I have.
You might do a mock up of the door, and see what kind of cross force resistance the joinery has (i.e., try to rack the door with a bar clamp and see what kind of pressure that takes; if it is more than the weight of the door and the glass, you might be OK).
I am totally ignorant of wind load, but that sounds like an architect's problem (unless you are the architect). It also raises a question of who is responsible for what. If the glass is installed by others, and your door and frame hold but the glass is blown out of the frame, that sounds like a glazier's problem. Is silicone and nailed in stops sufficient to hold the glass in? Perhaps the stops should have a rabbet or ledge to provide additional resistance from outside forces. You might also want to get responsibility concerns addressed (and in writing) before you move too far along.
I think that the circle looks out of place, and would question any structural benefit derived from its incorporation, as well as question how the art glass inserts would work with that design. Some other concerns that I would have would be the finish; who applies it and who warranties it, and if the door starts to deteriorate because of the finish and the wild mood swing temperatures, will you or the painter pay to repair or replace the door?
My gauge for taking on interesting or questionable work has been that I would not build something that I could not warrant. If you are having real doubts about doing this project, the time to walk away from a job is before you start it. Even if someone is waving a deposit check in your face.
FWIW
TonyF
8/18/21 #5: Oversized Exterior 1 Lite Doors ...
First, a critical review: This looks like someone wanted custom, but fearing a high cost, eliminated the details that would make it a good example of custom work. It looks cheap.
The door is not a problem if you build with good solid wood or stave built stiles, 2-1/4" thick, mortised for 2-1/2" or longer tenons, coped and stuck joints. Silicone the glass in place, and use it on both sides of the glass. 4 or 5 good ball bearing architectural grade hinges at 5"x5" will carry the weight of the door easily. No need to reinvent any wheels. And certainly no need for the circle. Trust the joints. No need for a bar clamp to test them, they should be far stronger than what a bar clamp can bring to the scene.
No funny hinges, and no multipoint. No big circle. Single point latch will work just fine. Crown the latch stile about 1/8" to 3/16". You might want to add a line of silicone bulb weather strip on the three sides of the door edge to augment the Q-lon type compressible foam.
The frame needs to 8/4 solids, rabbeted 3/4" deep x 1-1/2" wide. Box the mulls with T&G spacers, 8/4 thick, glued the full lengths. Join them with epoxied dummy tenons, sliding the elements together with epoxy. Did I mention to use epoxy? If these are boxed to 6-5/8" "thick" x 5" wide, they will be as stiff as they need to be.
I would also consider boxing the side and head elements also. The stiffness they would give makes this thing nice and rigid. Set your glass with silicone, and it becomes almost monolithic. Make sure your benches are flat and this frame is built flat. Any deviation from the building flat to the installed flat could cause problems.
I admit this is scary at first look. Remember, we are problem solvers that happen to work in wood. No need for steel, or strange inventions to make this work. Believe in your ability to join wood, and you will have it. But move past the thin elements, make them fatter, and hollow, and you are tubular, man.
8/18/21 #6: Oversized Exterior 1 Lite Doors ...
Use a GE Silproof 2000 glazing caulk or similar that WILL NOT eat the I.G. sealant. It is a structural glazing caulk which means you won't need to worry about slippage.
Use a pivot hinge; not butt hinges. Hydraulic/Self closing will prevent the door from slamming etc.
I would add an upper sash above the door to continue the stiles all the way up.I would use V/G Douglas Fir. It doesn't move and paints perfect. My 2 cents.
8/18/21 #7: Oversized Exterior 1 Lite Doors ...
Thanks for the responses. They are much appreciated.
I'm not having any real doubts about whether this can be made out of wood or be successful. The questions stem from having never tackled a project of this scale before. The fact of the matter is that most of us learn on the job, by doing the job. Very few of us have the luxury of being apprenticed to anyone who can reasonably teach us anything about our trade. Those who are are extremely lucky. Nobody has ever sat down and said 'Today we're building a 16' door for learning and fun. Perhaps one day you'll be called upon to make one.' I'm 100% self taught, on the job, through experience, through books, and asking dumb questions, and generally looking like a fool. Like David said, we're problem solvers and this is just a problem to solve.
David, thanks for the review. In your opinion, what would make it look not cheap? I agree that it doesn't look right and my suggestion to the client is a 42" door to balance everything. That said, they've specified 48", so that's where we start.
Would you be willing to draw a quick sketch of what you are suggesting in regards the boxed mulls and frame? I think I'm following your description but I'm highly visual, and a picture would help me out.
What epoxy do you recommend? There are millions of brands. My default is to use Titebond 2 for everything. What advantage does epoxy give over this?
Thanks.
8/18/21 #8: Oversized Exterior 1 Lite Doors ...
I, too am self taught. I worked with a few old guys back in the '70's. But they were burned out, and no real help, for the most part. I tend to overdo it, but then we have no failures.
No drawing handy, but just space your two jambs apart with a full length stick in the outer edge and another along the inner edge. We typically rabbet the spacers to make a 1/4" x 1/4" tongue on each part, then put a 1/4 x 1/4 plow in the back of the jambs. Glue and clamp.
We used West System for 30 years or more. Volume pumps make it easy to get 'just a bit' if needed. We now have Total Boat (from Jamestown Dist.) with an equal resin/catalyst mix that is so simple you feel guilty.
Once glued and clamped, you have a wooden box that is more rigid than two or three jambs together. I would run the two verticals full length, sill to head.
I would also "semi-box" the perimeter parts that run to the walls. Make them close to the same width as the boxed mulls so things look like they belong to each other. Once joined to each other, you will have a very strong and rigid assembly. Add the glass and weight will double, but it will still show some rigidity.
The photos are of boxed jambs. You can imagine how strong they are, with plenty of room to join, and they also give a look of solidity.
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8/18/21 #9: Oversized Exterior 1 Lite Doors ...
Ugh, I'm so hopelessly visual. Quick sketch to see whether I've gleaned from this conversation what I think I've gleaned.
If the boxes are big enough, like in this case, would you fill them with insulation or something? Or leave them hollow?
David, what product are you using on the bottom of the mulls where they meet the threshold? It's a rubber seal of some sort?
Thanks.
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8/18/21 #10: Oversized Exterior 1 Lite Doors ...
Website: http://www.acornwoodworks.com
Yes, rip and size rigid foam to go inside the box mulls.
Epoxy is used at every joint. We also use the same silicone sealant we use to set glass. Why one over the other? Evolving discussion is about any pros and cons.
8/18/21 #11: Oversized Exterior 1 Lite Doors ...
To be honest, I just skipped down till i saw David R.. always a joy to read.
8/18/21 #12: Oversized Exterior 1 Lite Doors ...
We build these large units a couple different ways.The first one I call fixed in place sidelights. The frame is built using door frame tooling 3” thick X 4 to 5” wide. The sidelights and doors are set into the rebates on the frame. To get jamb width usually 6 3/4” or more 8/4 jamb extension are set into the frame. This adds a lot of strength to the frame and that is very important with the door in the middle. Sidelights are installed into the frame with screws before glazing is installed.
This results in a thick heavy frame and sidelight - door that may or may not be acceptable design wise.
This is a double gasket 68mm thick Euro door but the same principles can be used for conventional US type butt hinged doors.
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https://www.instagram.com/p/CFO-PV8jt2b/?utm_medium=copy_link
8/18/21 #13: Oversized Exterior 1 Lite Doors ...
The second type construction I will show is a lighter construction that shows more glass. The door and frame is also built 2 5/8” thick. The frame is made with window tooling that will also accept the door and hinges. Using 8/4 jamb extensions this frame is as strong as the fixed in place type and has a lighter feel.
This frame is joined using tenons, dowels and Domino joinery. I use whatever is easy and strong for the application.
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https://www.instagram.com/p/CLNujfHDLN5/?utm_medium=copy_link
8/18/21 #14: Oversized Exterior 1 Lite Doors ...
Christopher, those are some different proportions on your unit! Trying to imagine how it would look in real life.
One thing, I would check with the IGU producer to see if the sharp inside curves of the top and bottom door glass are prone to failure. On this unit I would run the mid horizontal frame member like you show but then would add a 8/4 or thicker jamb extension vertical that crosses it.
Here is another Instagram link showing more construction of the second frame.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CLhHPxTDom7/?utm_medium=copy_link
8/20/21 #15: Oversized Exterior 1 Lite Doors ...
Is this unit going to be out in the weather?
When I worked at a place that built Big Impressive Glass Stuff, I found that water running down long vertical surfaces would creep in at a slight angle. Tall French doors under a Great Room End Wall Of Glass would leak badly, especially when facing east.
8/20/21 #16: Oversized Exterior 1 Lite Doors ...
Website: http://kalawood.com
No matter how hard you try and how many things you build, there always seems to be someone else's work to look up to.
Just had a very informative meeting with the clients.
They want even less bulk to the stiles and mulls. Making the outer frame bigger to match is definitely out. I'm thinking to accommodate that I have to go with a pivot hinge to alleviate the structural necessity of the bigger mulls holding the door. The strength of the whole frame to resist wind loading will have to come from its depth, not its width. The wooden circle in the middle is actually highly wanted (but was not previously understood by anyone except the lady of the house), but needs to be obviously made to the proper portions.
They also want the whole thing metal clad. So much for wood.
Anyone have recommendations on appropriate pivot hinges? More research.
David, would the bulb type seal not cause too much friction? I've built one door where we tried to do some extra weather sealing on it, and at the end of the day, it was so well sealed you couldn't even close it. We ended up switching to smaller weather stripping to make it close better.
Methinks that maybe this isn't a wooden door, after all.
8/20/21 #17: Oversized Exterior 1 Lite Doors ...
They don't want a wood door. They want an aluminum door.
The limiting factor with your design is the weight. Have you ever picked up an ICU panel? Checkout the hinges they stick on a regular sized european doubled glazed plastic door.
In your case the glass panel is strong enough to be the door itself. You are in effect adding the wood to give mounting points for the hinges and knob.
Take a look at the Dow website for structural silicone window glazing. That's what holds panels in buildings and aquariums together.
8/22/21 #18: Oversized Exterior 1 Lite Doors ...
I agree. We should have seen it earlier. Metal entry, probably black anodized aluminum.
Don't feel too bad for the runaround. Dealing directly with clients has its pitfalls. Dealing with designers or contractors also has its pitfalls.
Watch how the clients will back down and “want wood” when the most agreeable person on the project will be leaving the conversation. I bet lunch they will want to reconsider, especially when the aluminum guy wants to square off all those curves.
Raise your prices.
8/22/21 #19: Oversized Exterior 1 Lite Doors ...
This has been perhaps in of the best posts of late.
Brings up a good item to add to client contact- do you have any pictures ?
Thanks Dave and Joe. Beautiful work and appreciate all the tech expertise-side of the advice
8/24/21 #20: Oversized Exterior 1 Lite Doors ...
I have a picture in my mind of what this house looks like and it ain't pretty.
8/24/21 #21: Oversized Exterior 1 Lite Doors ...
I have never regretted walking away from marginal work. There are enough people looking for good to great work to keep me and many others busy.
Walking the edge may add a little excitement, and I'll be one of the first for that, but only if I am sure I am protected and can save my pink butt should things get out of hand.
I would politely refuse this one, not giving a reason unless they asked. They ask why, and I am honest - "This is not the type of sound, well designed, and attractive work we seek." More than once, they come back and ask me for a redesign and something I like. And more than once, we come up with something that they like/love, and then we build it.
8/24/21 #22: Oversized Exterior 1 Lite Doors ...
Website: http://kalawood.com
The issue they have is competing requirements within the design. The lady of the house has a design in mind, and the man of the house has his build material requirements. He wants metal clad, she wants a door with lots of curves and even mouldings on the face of it.
The house is actually quite nice, and whatever door they go with will hopefully be quite nice, too, but they have to figure out how to manage their expectations (which, to be fair, they are only able to do by having conversations with companies like us about what is and isn't possible with the various methods available to build doors). It's looking less and less like it will be a wood door solution we can offer.
At the end of the day, I'm not a door manufacturer: I'm a _wood_door_ manufacturer.
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