Message Thread:
interior Custom Shutters
2/1/22
Website: http://www.adamsarch.com
A customer has requested us to replicate interior shutters that they saw in France on vacation.
As you can see from the photos these shutters will be difficult fabricate due to the detailed profile and the tight radius.
We usually make our product out of solid wood however we are considering fabricating these shutters out of MDF.
We are looking for helpful direction and insight from anyone regarding making these shutters out of solidwood and how do you work around such a tight radius? We are also looking for advice on how to fabricate the shutters from MDF.
We started drawing the shutter. But as you may know, you can't also make what you draw.
Thanks for your assistance in advance.
Chad
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2/1/22 #3: interior Custom Shutters ...
Website: http://www.adamsarch.com
Attached are more pictures showing the style of shutter.
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2/1/22 #4: interior Custom Shutters ...
Website: http://www.adamsarch.com
Attached are more pictures showing the style of shutter.
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View higher quality, full size image (480 X 640)
2/1/22 #5: interior Custom Shutters ...
Where is the tight radius? I don't see it. I'd stick with solid hardwood as a rosette like that will take hours of sanding to get it smooth and not fuzz up like painted MDF
2/2/22 #7: interior Custom Shutters ...
Website: http://www.adamsarch.com
We feel the inside of the circle is a tight radius. The cutter head body is going to have to be fairly small with that type of moulding profile. Do you think the profile is panel stop or is the profile part of the sticking to the rail? How would you accomplish setting up tooling and fabricating this? Thanks, Chad
2/2/22 #8: interior Custom Shutters ...
Lathe work on a face plate or CNC hardwood. Either would be better than mdf.
2/2/22 #9: interior Custom Shutters ...
Lathe work +1. Fairly simple and you get 2 shutters out of each turning
2/2/22 #10: interior Custom Shutters ...
I saw the rosette as being elliptical, maybe just camera angle. The perfect application for CNC. Farm it out if you aren't equipped.
2/2/22 #11: interior Custom Shutters ...
And....just to keep your head spinning, it is possible, once common, to turn ellipses on a lathe.
What you will run into is the development of the miter as the straight and curve meet each other. This makes for a curved miter joint. A perfect time to use that warped miter saw.
I learned this as a "developed" miter. Gary K calls them "hunting miters". Either way, they are a difficult until you approach them correctly. Gary has an excellent article on this. Follow the link.
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https:/https://www.thisiscarpentry.com/2019/02/01/hunting-miters/
2/2/22 #12: interior Custom Shutters ...
Not real common on the lathe, unless you had an elliptical chuck laying around. Really not common today, but then again specialty turning shops are just are rare.
2/3/22 #13: interior Custom Shutters ...
Website: F
If the rosette is a true radius, then I would turn it on the lathe, and use a reverse molding template to help keep the turning on track.
Make your straight molding. Make a reverse of that molding in thin steel, template steel. Use the reverse to guide you at the lathe. Be sure it is square to the world at large so the molding runs true.
If it is not a circle/true radius, then I would “bench route” the molding. Find/make the router bits you need, fasten the blanks to 3/4 ply on the bench top. Set the router up with a finger that will follow the inside or outside curve of the mold, and chew it out progressively.
Truth be told, it is rare we have to resort to Hunting miters. Most times we can blend the two parts together so it is a smooth transition. If it looks good from 2 feet, then it will be great.
2/3/22 #14: interior Custom Shutters ...
Whatever method you choose be sure to select as stable a wood as possible. My guess is that the central rail/rosette will be about 12" wide by 20" tall and will have the grain running vertically - opposite to a traditional rail. I'm thinking mahogany certainly not poplar.
By the way this is a piece of cake for a cnc router with one or two bits.
2/3/22 #15: interior Custom Shutters ...
Website: http://acornwoodworks.com
While it is true that a CNC can make the parts - straight and curved - in good time, the difficult part - the miters - have been done for centuries on the bench. The CNC will not cut the miters for you. Or even if it does, will they come together Ok?
You may now realize, the tighter the radius, the greater the need for hunting miters. The curve work in the photo does not require hunting miters. The curves were all lathe made.
To avoid hunting miters, you could bench route the curves so that the blanks go straight where they first contact the straights. This makes for a more difficult layout, but if you have to bench route, it will make those miters easier.
No matter what you do, make several extra of each part so you can experiment a little, and once you have it, assemble a sample board and hang it on the wall so you have a real world example the next time it comes up.
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2/3/22 #16: interior Custom Shutters ...
I was thinking that I would rout the curved moulding with the cnc. This would take less time than it would take to make the profile template (maybe not). I saw the evidence of the the curved mitre geometry in the first images created in CAD. I would be inclined to cut those theoretical mitres on a test blank with the cnc and add an allowance only if theory and practice don't align. I find that so much time is spent removing wood left as an allowance because I wasn't confident in my original cuts. In other words time spent in setting up my original cuts pays off in time saved sneaking up on a good fit.
2/3/22 #17: interior Custom Shutters ...
I just want to chime in and say this has been on of the best posts I have seen here. Very informative. Tom that door sexy too!
2/3/22 #18: interior Custom Shutters ...
I would like to take credit for David's work any time but sadly...
2/3/22 #19: interior Custom Shutters ...
Website: http://cherrybrookwoodworks.com
I think the entire rail is one solid piece, the curved moldings(both) are true circles and its all turned on the lathe. I competent turner can do that quickly.
2/11/22 #20: interior Custom Shutters ...
That could very easily be made on a cnc, you just need the bits. Make it out of exterior grade and you will get any thickness you need up to 1 1/2". As for "fuzzyness" anyone who has made doors out of mdf knows how to finish it where it is not even an issue. As for the "miters" on the radius pieces come on guys you look at them they are rough (as the doors appear to be very old) but then again for 4 radius miters per shutter can very done with some sharp chisels and a little bit of time and patient. If the customer is going to pay for the time for someone to turn these on a lathe then they can pay for a little whittleing time as well. If you want to make the corners true miters then cnc the rosettes with the outside profile and then cut your miters in the outside profile only and make your trim and miter it into it. If they want them out of solid wood and stain grade then glue up your stock for the rosettes, cnc them and then miter the outside trim and make the rest of the shutters as you normally wood, just like a door only thinner. The whole key here is the customer willing to pay enough for your time and investment in experience and equipment? I gave up a long time ago doing something "difficult" for sake of saying I did it, if it did not add to my bottom line then after all it is really just a bad business desicion.
2/11/22 #21: interior Custom Shutters ...
Let's assume there are 4 rosettes per pair, and 4 segments of a curve at a longer radius, to make a pair.
The first rosette would take me an hour, the second about 40 mins, 3rd would be about 20 mins, and all others will be about 12 minutes - about the same time to mount the stock.
Lathe work can be very fast with a person that understands it.
2/16/22 #22: interior Custom Shutters ...
Website: http://acornwoodworks.com
I would be remiss if I did not rare back and shout MDF?!? This is woodwork of a fine degree. Wood is the material, joinery is the process, and excellence is our goal. MDF stinks and scrap should be handled with care. F Shavings from hardwood is usefull. Respect yourself and use hardwoods. Use the best process you can find, but please do not use that damn MDF for this kind of work.
Stepping off soapbox....
2/17/22 #23: interior Custom Shutters ...
David,
Come on man join the 21st century. Years ago the only good wheels were made of wood, some one came along with a better idea and said lets use rubber. People like you and those with a closed mind said "no! the only real wheels are made of wood" People also said that iron and steel will never replace wood in construction of buildings. We in the woodworking business must accept new ideas and new products that help sustain the trees that we so despretely need. We must stop using "solid lumber" for everything that we build, and save the solid finish lumber for where it is truly needed and where there is no replacement. Look at the demand and cost of "old growth lumber"
the harvesting of trees that have sunk in rivers, the tearing down of old warehouses and barns and remilling of their lumber. If new lumber were in infinite supply these things would not be happening. It is only going to get worse. I look back at my 40 years in the woodworking industry and I can tell you the hardwood lumber today is no match for what we got when I started. Sure every once in a while you get lucky and get a really good batch, but that use to be the norm not the exception, today you have to pay a premium just to get what I would call "real lumber"
So if we have to use alternitive products, like mdf, particle board, etc that is made of lesser grade wood products, and sometime repurposed products it is alright to use them (it is really our responsibility to use them) in order to save solid wood for were it is needed and there is no replacement. I am not against using solid hardwood but I am against wasting it.
One example, I had a customer that wanted some shutters made, insisted that they be of solid wood. Well I made them and charged accordingly but I told him they must be back primed and all edges sealed, and painted as needed with a quality exterior paint. Within five years they had some splits in them. When I went to look at them they were not mantained properly. I suggested we make two pair out of exterior grade mdf 1 1/4" thick and see how they do. To this day they still look great even though he has not repainted them. And they cost less. But you David would not have made them because "I don't use MDF it is not real wood" Go tell that to the trees
2/18/22 #24: interior Custom Shutters ...
21st Century? Do I have to join?
While I am a fan of innovation, it is the appropriate innovation that I prefer.
MDF is not an appropriate innovation. While it does appear to "get rid of junk wood" in practice, trees that would make good lumber are used since the makers of MDF need a consistent mix of species and types, and cannot use just any random wood. So MDF does not magically resolve the problem of waste in wood processing. In fact, when one considers dealing with the end product - scrap at the CNC or panel saw - MDF may just make more scrap than it can ever resolve.
MDF is false economy since it is marketed as OK to use anywhere, for anything, and environmentally sound, it is used to make anything. Much of it is used for disposable products, cheap book cases that sag, Ikea-like furniture with fasteners that fail and render the entire piece unstable or unusable. So it goes, out to the curb. Heck, it is probably good that it is at the curb, since it will be made into more MDF. But, of course, it isn't. It is destined to go to the landfill.
Solid wood has intrinsic value - not paper printed value like the flat - pac stuff has. Solid wood will be salvaged, remanufactured and re-used. If nothing else, at the end it can give off some heat. We can all admire a piece of wood just for what it is, we do not do that with MDF.
The use of MDF encourages more of it to be made - more forests cut down, but for a disposable product. How long with the MDF furniture last? How long will a replica Highboy or wall of bookcases last by comparison? Which will have inherent value vs. applied value? Because the life cycle of MDF is so much shorter than solid wood, it actually has the opposite effect it claims and causes more forests to be cut.
Remember, just because something is new does not mean it is good, or solves all problems. Marketing efforts will spread the core uses around until they are pretty thin. The are places for MDF - it is a good core stock for veneer is one I buy MDF for. But it does not get the respect or the presentation that our solid wood does.
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