Architectural Woodworking

You are not logged in. [ Login ] Why log in
(NOTE: Login is not required to post)

would you warranty this entrance door?

12/19/15       
Joel

I build furniture and cabinetry, so entrance doors aren't my typical. I would like to hear back from seasoned door makers on my choices of material/ techniques for self improvement. As the title suggests, would you feel confident with this door holding up over time, or what would you have done differently, specifically related to reasons of longevity.

The door is engineered. Rail and stile substrate is two layers of 3/4" marine ply (marine grade version of baltic birch, visually-- forget the name of it) with a single 1/8" layer of baltic birch inbetween to get initial thickness laid up with marine epoxy similar to west systems two part. The veneers are Resawn @1/8" and sanded to final thickness of apron 3/32".

Panels are two layers of 5/8" baltic birch with same thickness veneers and same epoxy.

Rails and stiles are two rows of 2" long dowels (many of them) and the panels are also fit and epoxies into perimeter groove, as you would do most any other frame and panel, except this is fit well and epoxies into the frame, not being a floating panel.

My area of concern is the rails... applied 1/4" veneer for final aesthetic. They run long and capture both rail and stile. Epoxies one, and didn't like how the epoxy ignored my taped off border in an attempt to minimize latter squeeze out scraping/ sanding. The rest I used gorilla glue, which while foamy, was easier to deal with cleaning up after wards.

This door will be finished with epifanes spar varnish and be under a covered porch. Hardware is Rocky Mountain, "Convex" with 4 Emtek ball bearing NRP's (outswingingThe wood is claro, redwood lace burl and madrone. Same wood as an altar I posted in project gallery cpl years ago. Looking forward to finish and install.

Little nervous though. I am not a door guy, though I really enjoy building them, and would like to build many more. Try to do all that I can for stability, aesthetic, and durrability, but.... even when you think you know, you never know...you know?

Thoughts?

12/19/15       #2: would you warranty this entrance do ...
Joel

Having picture problems... trying again

12/20/15       #3: would you warranty this entrance do ...
james mcgrew Member

Use the preview button instead of post to check before and you will see if the photo posted. might be too big to load

12/20/15       #4: would you warranty this entrance do ...
Mary Stone Member

Website: http://www.woodweb.com

Joel, if you are having problems with your image, you can send it to me via email and I will add it here - please send to webmaster@woodweb.com. Thanks -

12/20/15       #5: would you warranty this entrance do ...
David R Sochar Member

Website: http://www.acornwoodworks.com

Number one factor in door longevity is exposure to UV and water. UV will break down the finish and even heat up glues to near failure if it is a dark finish. While South facing is bad, East and West are actually worse since the sun can strike the door at near 90 degrees. Does the porch shelter the door from UV 100% of the time? Water?

Water will get in anywhere it can. Especially the bottom of the stiles where the end grain will try to drink up water once again. Ply will limit this uptake, but not eliminate it. This should all be sealed with epoxy after fitting, before final installation.

The sticking should be integral to the wood rails and stiles, not applied, in my opinion, to help limit places that water will work its way in to the panel edges and rail joints. You do not describe what type of sticking or molding you use. Should be a cap mold?

As for your construction, I know little about those methods, so am not qualified to comment. My opinion from a distance is that there are many more joints - more joints that can fail from lack of glue or can let water in, in that type of door than a door made of solid wood with integral sticking. Count the number of parts in the door you made, then the number of parts if it were to be made in solids.

I think any warranty is conditional upon final placement. You can warrant against shop made defects, but once it leaves your shop, the door is out of your control.

12/20/15       #6: would you warranty this entrance do ...
Joel Member

Thank you. I put on a veneer remnant with epoxy over the plywood core on the bottom, and the shoe covers that as well. Should i silicone that? The covered porch is north east facing, with a chance of water only in driving wind and storms.

The French doors, however are south west facing, and I used old growth vg redwood on the exterior of those, as that is all of the other exterior trim, so it matches.

The small trim of madrone and claro surrounding the redwood panels is tight bond iii and will be integrated with the finish two coats rapid clear gloss epifanes then third coat of satin.

The trim is also engineered, because I didn't have enough claro to go solid, and maintain the sequential grain matching. The intent was to be balanced and harmonious visually.

This is all t and m. Would have no idea where to begin for a quote and would have eaten it hard otherwise. But I specialize in Resawn veneer in and am pretty efficient in the process. I enjoy it imensly too.


View higher quality, full size image (2322 X 4128)

12/21/15       #7: would you warranty this entrance do ...
RobertJ

Joel,

I read your post and can only comment on your finish schedule. I am a finisher and have used Epifanes for exterior doors too. If you don't know already, the first coat needs to be thinned by at least 50%. Typically, the second and third coats are again thinned, but by a lesser ratio. The final coat is applied at full strength. My suggestion is to wait at least 24 hours between coats of finish.

The other alternative is to apply a 2K Urethane Varnish by Milesi or ICA Coatings from Italy.

I would never guarantee a finish past 2 years. UV rays are a killer on wood.

12/21/15       #9: would you warranty this entrance do ...
Joel Member

Thank you, very much, Robert. I was going to thin the first coat then do the next two at full strength. I appreciate your input. So I'll do that, should I do more coats prior to a final full strength coat?

Anyone else have comment, or concern in regards to the applied rail skins? They aare glued well, quartersawn, and 1/4" thick.

12/22/15       #10: would you warranty this entrance do ...
Joe Calhoon

Joel,
That is an awesome looking door! Veneer offers a lot of design freedom not possible with solid wood.

I want to experiment with sawn veneer on doors and will be anxious to see how this goes for you. Its risky business for sure. I network with a lot of custom door builders across the country and several have tried sawn veneer with mixed results. From what I have seen companies that ship product out have problems with this. A couple small companies that work in their local environment have reported good results. If the material is acclimatized to your area and with a covered porch that is in your favor.

Do you have a link for the marine ply you used?

I am not familiar with the process you used and can only offer a few suggestions.
For exterior door and window work dowels should be rot resistant. We get locust or white oak dowels from Europe specifically for this application. Rangate sells these in the US. Domino XL with Sipo tenons is another good choice for this. Since you are under a covered porch the normal birch or beech dowel should not be an issue.

Epoxy is messy. Would something like Unibond 800 work better? We use a lot of TB3 with success but find on horizontal rails with sawn skins the joint opens up a little over time. We stay away from skins on exterior doors anymore and prefer no laminations to the weather. A lot of companies have success with stave and skin construction though. Make sure all your sawn veneer is same MC each side.
As Dave mentioned loose stops to the outside are not good construction but with the design I think the only way you could do it.

We have had good luck using recoatable waterbase door and window finishes like Milesi, Sirca and ICA offer. It was a learning process for us and something you would not want to try first time on a door like this.

Thin veneer would be safe but I have never liked the idea of using this on entrance doors.
Good luck,
Joe

12/22/15       #11: would you warranty this entrance do ...
Joel Member

Thanks Joe. I used hydrote plywood. https://www.marine-plywood.us/mahogany_meranti.htm

Quality control in a small shop is more predictable than a large manufacturer in my opinion also.

My concern in the rails is more checking than delamination, but at this point, will just have to endure the test of time. I was hoping for reasurance to calm the nerves, I guess.

I will post photos after install.

All of the hardwood I used was kd.

It also seems that with more coats of finish, thinned, will offer better penetration into any potential water weak spots...

This project is for an 800 Sq ft. Tree house. Pretty trick little house.

12/27/15       #12: would you warranty this entrance do ...
Joel

First coat of finish


View higher quality, full size image (960 X 540)

12/30/15       #13: would you warranty this entrance do ...
Geoff

Joel,
In the latest picture that you posted it looks like there is a black line on the stile/rail joint and then one across the bottom rail. I didn't notice that in the earlier picture. Am I just seeing things, again

1/1/16       #15: would you warranty this entrance do ...
Joel Member

The black in the style is a natural color spot in the wood. The black line allong the bottom, I used a sharpie pen to color the wood black where the shoe fits up to. The shoe is black anodized bronze. That will never be seen.

The natural black spot is in the rest of the sequential cuts as well, in the interior, exterior, casing as well.

The glass in the French doors is dual pane with a uv coating on the exterior face. With claro glass stops on the interior. Planning on silicon in the glass in. Any other recommendations or types or methods for installing the glass?


View higher quality, full size image (540 X 960)


View higher quality, full size image (528 X 960)


View higher quality, full size image (528 X 960)

1/17/16       #16: would you warranty this entrance do ...
Joel Member

Done. Happy. Hope she lasts a while.


View higher quality, full size image (540 X 960)


View higher quality, full size image (540 X 960)


View higher quality, full size image (528 X 960)

1/23/16       #17: would you warranty this entrance do ...
D. John Bishop

Does this door have direct exposure and which direction. If no overhang to protect I would not guarantee for a week. Plus which direction does it face, a more or less East facing door unprotected, no overhang will never live I donít care what you make it out of. It will need to be resurfaced every single year and will eventually succumb to the UV as everyone mentioned.

I am familiar with all the finished folks have recommended and they are great but will not protect very long and will never stop the sun from eventually killing the door depending on its exposure and if it has an overhang or not.

But aside from that GREAT JOB, ITS JUST AWSOME LOOKING.

DJB

1/24/16       #18: would you warranty this entrance do ...
Joel

The door is North East Facing, with a bit of cover, and, being that it is a tree house, most of the year, it is well shaded, and shielded from direct elements. Driving rain storms will get it wet, but the rain the other day wasn't touching it.

The back French doors, on the other hand are South facing. But they are old growth vertical grain redwood, and a much simpler design. Same finish. THe owners understand they will have to sand and refinish the doors every couple years to maintain...

We'll see how it goes.

  • Post a Response to this thread
  • notify me of responses to this topic
  • To receive email notification of additions to this forum thread,
    enter your name and email address, and then click the
    "Keep Me Posted" button below.

    Please Note: If you have posted a message or response,
    do not submit this request ... you are already signed up
    to receive notification!

    Your Name:
    E-Mail Address:
    Enter the correct numbers into the field below:
     

    Date of your Birth:



    Return to top of page

    Buy & Sell Exchanges | Forums | Galleries | Site Map

    FORUM GUIDELINES: Please review the guidelines below before posting at WOODWEB's Interactive Message Boards (return to top)

  • WOODWEB is a professional industrial woodworking site. Hobbyist and homeowner woodworking questions are inappropriate.
  • Messages should be kept reasonably short and on topic, relating to the focus of the forum. Responses should relate to the original question.
  • A valid email return address must be included with each message.
  • Advertising is inappropriate. The only exceptions are the Classified Ads Exchange, Machinery Exchange, Lumber Exchange, and Job Opportunities and Services Exchange. When posting listings in these areas, review the posting instructions carefully.
  • Subject lines may be edited for length and clarity.
  • "Cross posting" is not permitted. Choose the best forum for your question, and post your question at one forum only.
  • Messages requesting private responses will be removed - Forums are designed to provide information and assistance for all of our visitors. Private response requests are appropriate at WOODWEB's Exchanges and Job Opportunities and Services.
  • Messages that accuse businesses or individuals of alleged negative actions or behavior are inappropriate since WOODWEB is unable to verify or substantiate the claims.
  • Posts with the intent of soliciting answers to surveys are not appropriate. Contact WOODWEB for more information on initiating a survey.
  • Excessive forum participation by an individual upsets the balance of a healthy forum atmosphere. Individuals who excessively post responses containing marginal content will be considered repeat forum abusers.
  • Responses that initiate or support inappropriate and off-topic discussion of general politics detract from the professional woodworking focus of WOODWEB, and will be removed.
  • Participants are encouraged to use their real name when posting. Intentionally using another persons name is prohibited, and posts of this nature will be removed at WOODWEB's discretion.
  • Comments, questions, or criticisms regarding Forum policies should be directed to WOODWEB's Systems Administrator
    (return to top).

    Carefully review your message before clicking on the "Send Message" button - you will not be able to revise the message once it has been sent.

    You will be notified of responses to the message(s) you posted via email. Be sure to enter your email address correctly.

    WOODWEB's forums are a highly regarded resource for professional woodworkers. Messages and responses that are crafted in a professional and civil manner strengthen this resource. Messages that do not reflect a professional tone reduce the value of our forums.

    Messages are inappropriate when their content: is deemed libelous in nature or is based on rumor, fails to meet basic standards of decorum, contains blatant advertising or inappropriate emphasis on self promotion (return to top).

    Libel:   Posts which defame an individual or organization, or employ a tone which can be viewed as malicious in nature. Words, pictures, or cartoons which expose a person or organization to public hatred, shame, disgrace, or ridicule, or induce an ill opinion of a person or organization, are libelous.

    Improper Decorum:   Posts which are profane, inciting, disrespectful or uncivil in tone, or maliciously worded. This also includes the venting of unsubstantiated opinions. Such messages do little to illuminate a given topic, and often have the opposite effect. Constructive criticism is acceptable (return to top).

    Advertising:   The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not an advertising venue. Companies participating in a Forum discussion should provide specific answers to posted questions. WOODWEB suggests that businesses include an appropriately crafted signature in order to identify their company. A well meaning post that seems to be on-topic but contains a product reference may do your business more harm than good in the Forum environment. Forum users may perceive your references to specific products as unsolicited advertising (spam) and consciously avoid your web site or services. A well-crafted signature is an appropriate way to advertise your services that will not offend potential customers. Signatures should be limited to 4-6 lines, and may contain information that identifies the type of business you're in, your URL and email address (return to top).

    Repeated Forum Abuse: Forum participants who repeatedly fail to follow WOODWEB's Forum Guidelines may encounter difficulty when attempting to post messages.

    There are often situations when the original message asks for opinions: "What is the best widget for my type of shop?". To a certain extent, the person posting the message is responsible for including specific questions within the message. An open ended question (like the one above) invites responses that may read as sales pitches. WOODWEB suggests that companies responding to such a question provide detailed and substantive replies rather than responses that read as a one-sided product promotion. It has been WOODWEB's experience that substantive responses are held in higher regard by our readers (return to top).

    The staff of WOODWEB assume no responsibility for the accuracy, content, or outcome of any posting transmitted at WOODWEB's Message Boards. Participants should undertake the use of machinery, materials and methods discussed at WOODWEB's Message Boards after considerate evaluation, and at their own risk. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages it deems inappropriate. (return to top)


  • Forum Posting Help
    Your Name The name you enter in this field will be the name that appears with your post or response (return to form).
    Your Website Personal or business website links must point to the author's website. Inappropriate links will be removed without notice, and at WOODWEB's sole discretion. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    E-Mail Address Your e-mail address will not be publicly viewable. Forum participants will be able to contact you using a contact link (included with your post) that is substituted for your actual address. You must include a valid email address in this field. (return to form)
    Subject Subject may be edited for length and clarity. Subject lines should provide an indication of the content of your post. (return to form)
    Thread Related Link and Image Guidelines Thread Related Links posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should point to locations that provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related Link that directs visitors to an area with inappropriate content will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    Thread Related File Uploads Thread Related Files posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. Video Files: acceptable video formats are: .MOV .AVI .WMV .MPEG .MPG .MP4 (Image Upload Tips)   If you encounter any difficulty when uploading video files, E-mail WOODWEB for assistance. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related File that contains inappropriate content will be removed, and uploaded files that are not directly related to the message thread will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links, files, or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)