Architectural Woodworking

You are not logged in. [ Login ] Why log in
(NOTE: Login is not required to post)

Shop Drawings

6/5/20       
Jimbo

Website: http://SpringwoodStudios.com

I only do architectural millwork occasionally, and mostly for people I've known well and for a long time. But a big contractor asked me to bid on a particular job that suits my expertise, and to provide shop drawings.

In all the rest of my work, my shop drawings consist of enough information that I remember what I'm doing when it comes time to build, plus a perspective sketch so the customer understands what they are getting. On this one, the drawings will be reviewed by the architect, etc.

Is it customary to charge for drawings like these? Plans, elevations, sections, and some details rendered in Layout. In this case, I have to fill in gaps in the architect's knowledge, and actually redesign the piece and add some support members for the contractor to supply.

Thanks in advance,

Jimbo

6/5/20       #2: Shop Drawings ...
Jared E

Your drawing time ought to be built into the cost of what you're selling. Many take a deposit upfront to provide shop drawings before the job starts. I take 5% of the estimated job before I draw, in the hopes that it keeps my job from being shopped elsewhere.

6/6/20       #3: Shop Drawings ...
james e mcgrew  Member

Website: mcgrewwoodwork.com

Damn right you charge... I pay 1k to 2.5 k on average got a decent job of 60-100 cases plus a desk or two

6/6/20       #4: Shop Drawings ...
TonyF

Jimbo:

You probably know all of this, and some here will disagree, but to me shop drawings serve multiple purposes.

They indicate to the architect/designer/client what your interpretation of their design intent is.

They afford you the opportunity to insert your procedures/product line/materials towards the end of approval by the designer of record.

They allow you to address any ambiguities in the bid drawings, and any differences between conceptual design and reality, or any differences between what is drawn and the space it needs to fit in to.

They allow you to "value engineer" the project so that you can use less expensive materials or methods while keeping the same price, or conversely, allow for the addition of change orders should the decided upon materials or methods lead to greater expense than what was initially bid.

My personal favorite, it allows you something to put in front of all interested parties should anyone say, after the project is built, "That is not what I wanted." Over the course of my working life, that has happened three times, when the designer/architect has not communicated with the client as to what was being provided. It is a great feeling to be able to pull out a signed shop drawing in those circumstances, instead of relying on verbal discussions, finger pointing, and the selective memory of duplicitous designers/architects/contractors.

Shop drawing expenses should be accounted for either as a line item in your bid, or as an added component of your hourly shop rate.

I have NEVER done shop drawings prior to being awarded a project. If they are asking for shop drawings prior to your being awarded the project, then you are an architectural millwork consultant, and should charge accordingly for your input and expertise, just like the architect or engineer is doing.

In that case, get your drafting money up front, unless you like drawing for free, because otherwise there is a good chance that will happen. There is a reason that they want your input, and without the guarantee of getting the project, you may just be providing your design and construction skills for free to the contractors "go-to guy", or to the low bidder on the project.

Nice work on your website, by the way. I especially like the lectern radial wall unit with the octagonal elements; is that your design?

Good luck with your contractor.
TonyF

6/8/20       #5: Shop Drawings ...
Jimbo

Thanks for all the comments, Tony. You added a good bit to my idea of what to do with shop drawings.

The pulpit was our design. I saw the pattern in an old door in Sitges, Spain, so it fit in perfectly with the 16th-17th century Spanish mission theme for the church. We played a lot with it to figure how to wrap it on a ~3' radius wall.

For me, it's always been about designing interesting stuff, so I often stretch specs to get them to a better place ;?) This project caught me flatfooted, having been out of the shop for a while due to COVID and just not thinking about business.

You are right, I should have started with a fee for design and folded it into my price if awarded, instead I did my usual of factoring it into overhead.

6/13/20       #6: Shop Drawings ...
cabinetmaker

Give a bid

Get the contract.

Provide shop drawings.

Send a bill for shop drawings.

Get shop drawings back, change as needed. Any changes that add, write a change order explaining the cost impact.

Get approved written change order back with new contracted amount in writing.

Submit a materials draw fee. Put on invoice “production will not proceed until clients moneys received under the current economic conditions”

You cannot afford to work for free, or get burned like I am.

12/18/20       #7: Shop Drawings ...
DOUGLAS P CONTI Member

shop drawings are part of the job, and should get paid for when done. Our shop drawings and submittals range form 3-5 % of the total contract. We usually have a line item on our schedule of values for them. I would never consider doing them without being awarded the contract. It is SOP for shop drawings to be due with in 30 days of an executed contract. I used to have an independent contractor do my shops, he would charge 1-3% and I would make about the same off his efforts. After a few sets he knew what I wanted in the shops and what the Arch. wanted as well. Then he had a brain anurism and could no longer do them. I am back to doing them myself and for the money I really do not mind, plus I really know how to build and install the job, it is just finding the time to do them is sometimes is difficult. Once you build up a library of Arch. symbols and learn your way around drawing they actually go quite quick. Just remember that architects love lots of details, even if they do not mean much, such as call outs and such. Plus leave them plenty of room to add mark-ups, and sometime even some mistakes for them to catch. In 30 years I never had a set of shop drawings that were not mark-up somehow somewhere. After all that is part of their job. A well thought out and drawn set of shop drawings will usually start your relationship with the achitect on the right foot unless of course he has someone under him review them and never actually sees them himself, were as all your efforts have gone to waste (but you did get paid)

  • Post a Response to this thread
  • notify me of responses to this topic
  • To receive email notification of additions to this forum thread,
    enter your name and email address, and then click the
    "Keep Me Posted" button below.

    Please Note: If you have posted a message or response,
    do not submit this request ... you are already signed up
    to receive notification!

    Your Name:
    E-Mail Address:
    Enter the correct numbers into the field below:
     

    Date of your Birth:



    Return to top of page

    Buy & Sell Exchanges | Forums | Galleries | Site Map

    FORUM GUIDELINES: Please review the guidelines below before posting at WOODWEB's Interactive Message Boards (return to top)

  • WOODWEB is a professional industrial woodworking site. Hobbyist and homeowner woodworking questions are inappropriate.
  • Messages should be kept reasonably short and on topic, relating to the focus of the forum. Responses should relate to the original question.
  • A valid email return address must be included with each message.
  • Advertising is inappropriate. The only exceptions are the Classified Ads Exchange, Machinery Exchange, Lumber Exchange, and Job Opportunities and Services Exchange. When posting listings in these areas, review the posting instructions carefully.
  • Subject lines may be edited for length and clarity.
  • "Cross posting" is not permitted. Choose the best forum for your question, and post your question at one forum only.
  • Messages requesting private responses will be removed - Forums are designed to provide information and assistance for all of our visitors. Private response requests are appropriate at WOODWEB's Exchanges and Job Opportunities and Services.
  • Messages that accuse businesses or individuals of alleged negative actions or behavior are inappropriate since WOODWEB is unable to verify or substantiate the claims.
  • Posts with the intent of soliciting answers to surveys are not appropriate. Contact WOODWEB for more information on initiating a survey.
  • Excessive forum participation by an individual upsets the balance of a healthy forum atmosphere. Individuals who excessively post responses containing marginal content will be considered repeat forum abusers.
  • Responses that initiate or support inappropriate and off-topic discussion of general politics detract from the professional woodworking focus of WOODWEB, and will be removed.
  • Participants are encouraged to use their real name when posting. Intentionally using another persons name is prohibited, and posts of this nature will be removed at WOODWEB's discretion.
  • Comments, questions, or criticisms regarding Forum policies should be directed to WOODWEB's Systems Administrator
    (return to top).

    Carefully review your message before clicking on the "Send Message" button - you will not be able to revise the message once it has been sent.

    You will be notified of responses to the message(s) you posted via email. Be sure to enter your email address correctly.

    WOODWEB's forums are a highly regarded resource for professional woodworkers. Messages and responses that are crafted in a professional and civil manner strengthen this resource. Messages that do not reflect a professional tone reduce the value of our forums.

    Messages are inappropriate when their content: is deemed libelous in nature or is based on rumor, fails to meet basic standards of decorum, contains blatant advertising or inappropriate emphasis on self promotion (return to top).

    Libel:   Posts which defame an individual or organization, or employ a tone which can be viewed as malicious in nature. Words, pictures, or cartoons which expose a person or organization to public hatred, shame, disgrace, or ridicule, or induce an ill opinion of a person or organization, are libelous.

    Improper Decorum:   Posts which are profane, inciting, disrespectful or uncivil in tone, or maliciously worded. This also includes the venting of unsubstantiated opinions. Such messages do little to illuminate a given topic, and often have the opposite effect. Constructive criticism is acceptable (return to top).

    Advertising:   The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not an advertising venue. Companies participating in a Forum discussion should provide specific answers to posted questions. WOODWEB suggests that businesses include an appropriately crafted signature in order to identify their company. A well meaning post that seems to be on-topic but contains a product reference may do your business more harm than good in the Forum environment. Forum users may perceive your references to specific products as unsolicited advertising (spam) and consciously avoid your web site or services. A well-crafted signature is an appropriate way to advertise your services that will not offend potential customers. Signatures should be limited to 4-6 lines, and may contain information that identifies the type of business you're in, your URL and email address (return to top).

    Repeated Forum Abuse: Forum participants who repeatedly fail to follow WOODWEB's Forum Guidelines may encounter difficulty when attempting to post messages.

    There are often situations when the original message asks for opinions: "What is the best widget for my type of shop?". To a certain extent, the person posting the message is responsible for including specific questions within the message. An open ended question (like the one above) invites responses that may read as sales pitches. WOODWEB suggests that companies responding to such a question provide detailed and substantive replies rather than responses that read as a one-sided product promotion. It has been WOODWEB's experience that substantive responses are held in higher regard by our readers (return to top).

    The staff of WOODWEB assume no responsibility for the accuracy, content, or outcome of any posting transmitted at WOODWEB's Message Boards. Participants should undertake the use of machinery, materials and methods discussed at WOODWEB's Message Boards after considerate evaluation, and at their own risk. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages it deems inappropriate. (return to top)


  • Forum Posting Help
    Your Name The name you enter in this field will be the name that appears with your post or response (return to form).
    Your Website Personal or business website links must point to the author's website. Inappropriate links will be removed without notice, and at WOODWEB's sole discretion. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    E-Mail Address Your e-mail address will not be publicly viewable. Forum participants will be able to contact you using a contact link (included with your post) that is substituted for your actual address. You must include a valid email address in this field. (return to form)
    Subject Subject may be edited for length and clarity. Subject lines should provide an indication of the content of your post. (return to form)
    Thread Related Link and Image Guidelines Thread Related Links posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should point to locations that provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related Link that directs visitors to an area with inappropriate content will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    Thread Related File Uploads Thread Related Files posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. Video Files: acceptable video formats are: .MOV .AVI .WMV .MPEG .MPG .MP4 (Image Upload Tips)   If you encounter any difficulty when uploading video files, E-mail WOODWEB for assistance. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related File that contains inappropriate content will be removed, and uploaded files that are not directly related to the message thread will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links, files, or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)