Architectural Woodworking

You are not logged in. [ Login ] Why log in
(NOTE: Login is not required to post)

What glue are they using?

8/10/21       
Dave

Greetings. What glue are these companies using to bond 1/8"-1/4" solid wood to baltic birch plywood. This seems to break all of the 'rules' regarding adhering solid wood to engineered substrait and yet these pictures are from legitimate companies that are selling this product. It's not photoshop. They aren't balancing the 'veneer'. It is just on one side. I get that there is a risk in doing this but I also understand that the glues have gotten a lot better than 50-100 years ago. Is this an epoxy that won't let the wood move or some type of flexible adhesive that will allow movement. Both of these products do not allow for any expansion/contraction on installation, so my guess is the former. Any opinions regarding the glue/process would be appreciated. I included the link to one of the companies that show actual installations for reference.


View higher quality, full size image (800 X 800)


View higher quality, full size image (2016 X 1512)


View higher quality, full size image (750 X 742)

https://formatwood.com/en/pillow/

8/10/21       #2: What glue are they using? ...
rich c

Zoomed in, that second picture has a smeared edge. Looks like some kind of vinyl and not solid wood.

8/10/21       #3: What glue are they using? ...
rich c

What indicates that is thick solid wood for the top layer? It could easily be pressed super thin veneer like they would use on simulated raised panels.

8/11/21       #4: What glue are they using? ...
Adam

The adhesive is irrelevant as far as warpage caused by an imbalanced panel. Meaning it doesn't matter. It will warp or not warp, regardless of the adhesive used to bond the outer layer.

8/11/21       #5: What glue are they using? ...
Dave

To answer questions:
Rich C I have actually laid eyes on the tiles from the first two photos. Definitely solid wood 1/8" +/- adhered to baltic birch ply. Regarding the pressed veneer possibility, in watching the installation video I can definitely see a thick wood edge on the tile, and the wood grain transitions from face grain to end grain as the 3d relief is carved (more visible on the acute portions of the 3d relief) which wouldn't be the case in pressed veneer. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I do a fair amount of 3d wood cnc fabrication so it does appear to me to be of solid wood.
Adam Fair point. I wasn't sure if there was some trick regarding doing this ( using compressed wood, baltic birch ply is strong enough to resist cupping) or, if this is solid wood as I am supposing, are they just culling any tiles that bend after gluing and hoping for the best. Thanks for the input.

8/11/21       #6: What glue are they using? ...
Keith Newton

It doesn’t do you any good to use the best glue on Earth, when the glue line of the face veneer is where it will fail.

8/11/21       #7: What glue are they using? ...
Paul Downs

Total panel thickness is 30mm. Looking at the installation video, it appears that the ply substrate is much of that thickness - at least 3/4". I think they are just gluing the solid onto the ply and hoping for the best. Not what I would do!

8/12/21       #8: What glue are they using? ...
Thomas

Funny that this post would come about today. Yesterday I had a customer come into the shop with a 38 inch by 38 inch piece of maple 1/2 plywood with 1/4 inch quarter sawn white oak glued to the maple. The pattern of the white oak mimicked old parquet flooring. He only wanted us to square the panels on the cnc. I questioned the method of gluing the solid wood to plywood and having opposing grains. He stated that he has been doing this for many years. He does commercial flooring in large commercial buildings.
As I looked at the glued up panels, I could only see failure (from experience) but he swore he never had a failure in more than 7 years of commercial flooring with this method. I just scratched my head and still can't understand it. I wish the "Wood Dr." would have been there to see it. Still scratching my head.....

8/12/21       #9: What glue are they using? ...
Tom Gardiner

Limit the amount of moisture introduced to the panel in the glue up which essentially pre-expands the veneer at glue up - then your face just becomes another ply - albeit a thicker one. All of these examples are relatively small - the mosaic tiles just don't have enough dimension to cause a significant deflection, the black tile has grooves routed through to break up the face tension, and the 3D example has z height to counter the warping force.
In my experience, cupping problems occur in the shop when the layup is fresh out of the press and exposed to different drying on one face to another.
Site warping issues have been from predictable causes such as flooring laid on fresh concrete. I'm sure the installation instructions for these products have a caveat for poor install process.
Engineered flooring (sorry David, that's what they call it) does this all the time - a thick veneer prefinished on one side not a balanced panel.

8/12/21       #10: What glue are they using? ...
Dave

Thank you all for your responses.
Keith. I agree that all of the cumulative knowledge and experience of the woodworking world would side with you (myself included), and yet these companies are making and selling these products. The company that makes the tiles from the first 2 photos has been doing this for 5+ years. I have been aware of their product line for most of that time and have been speculating on their imminent failure for years. I agree that is not a lifetime in terms of track record, but if the product was that faulty, I would think they would no longer be in business by now.
Paul: Agree but I'm starting to wonder.

Thomas: Thanks for posting. I could see how parquet might be more balanced with grain in opposing directions, but still a valid example. Curious if you know what type of glue he used?
Tom: Thanks. I have seen plenty of engineered flooring that is pretty similar to these examples. Maybe not quite as thick a 'veneer' but still they make some flooring that can be refinished which is usually 3/16" thickness. Good points about how each tile has some characteristic that will minimize cupping.
So........ Back to the original question. If you had to speculate, would it be Epoxy (West marine or system 3), Urea resin, or good old titebond 1/2/3? Thanks everyone! This post has gotten nearly as many responses as my 'who are you voting for' post last year.

8/12/21       #11: What glue are they using? ...
BH Davis  Member

Website: http://www.bhdavis.net

I think the top photo (multi-faceted pyramid) is simply a moistened standard paper back veneer vacuum pressed onto the shaped substrate. Can't say for certain this would be a reliably repeatable process but it is where I would start if I was trying to duplicate the end product.

I would think the lower two photos have individual veneer components in the 3" to 6" wide max. range. I would try TB2 for that process as each individual veneer segment needs to move independently and TB2 as good flexibility characteristics. The wood movement on each individual veneer component is so small I'd think the overall product would hold up.

BH Davis

8/12/21       #12: What glue are they using? ...
Tom Gardiner

Just guessing but if I were to try this I would have the shop use UF glue. I would choose not to be there on those days because I get a constricted throat from UF exposure.

8/13/21       #13: What glue are they using? ...
Adam

Unbalanced panels are caused by two things. Having one completely different product bonded to onside of a stable(flat) panel. The other is moisture permenance. If you coat one side of a panel with a moisture resistant product the panel will warp/cup a very high percentage of the time.

It can be hard to ascertain as to which is happening. For instance when using regular thin veneer you are coating one side of the panel with water perm resistant glue. It should cup. If you coated the other side with epoxy resin(0 perm) would it still cup?
If you did the same test but used 1/4” solid veneer would coating the opposing side with epoxy balance the panel? I don’t believe it would.

This is where experience & test panels & Woodweb can be helpful.

8/13/21       #14: What glue are they using? ...
rich c

Thomas, 1/4 sawn does not expand in it's width, but mainly in it's height. I can't say if the plywood will stay flat, but good chance it will nailed down to floor joists.

8/14/21       #15: What glue are they using? ...
David R Sochar Member

Wood moves (warps) in response to changes in the RH in the environment.

Increase the RH, and the solid wood will expand a bit (see "Shrinkulator"). If it is bonded to plywood or something that does not respond to the change in RH, then it will try to move. The smaller the part, the less potential for movement. Larger panels will show problems before small parts do.

Y'all need a re-reading of Bruce Hoadley's Understanding Wood.

8/14/21       #16: What glue are they using? ...
Adam

I’m waiting for

David Sochar’s Understanding Wood

Hoadley’s book is good, but a bit dated at this point. We need the Bible part 2. People have been doing all kinds of different things with wood, woodlike products and epoxy resin, since Hoadley

8/18/21       #17: What glue are they using? ...
David R Sochar Member

Re-reading your question, you seem to be thinking about the secret glue only real woodworkers can buy. You don't need it. Conventional glues will work fine.

Your objective is to glue veneer down so it does not move, so you want a rigid glue line. Easy enough. We do not know the depth of that object in the photo. If it is only 1" or so deep, then a membrane press would be used to press that veneer in place. Mass produced veneer panels get the veneer applied in membrane presses.

If the object is much more than an inch or so thick, then I think we are seeing 5 pcs of veneer carefully applied to a built core. Or 5 pcs of veneered substrate.

I would veneer a substrate (with backer if possible), then cut it apart, bevel the edges and put it back together again, taking great care to match grain. Rift would be best, if you have a choice.

8/31/21       #18: What glue are they using? ...
Dave

I appreciate all of the input. If I can find time to experiment with this I will post some results.
Thanks


Post a Response
  • Notify me of responses to this thread
  • Subscribe to email updates on this Forum
  • To receive email notification of additions to this forum thread,
    enter your name and email address, and then click the
    "Keep Me Posted" button below.

    Please Note: If you have posted a message or response,
    do not submit this request ... you are already signed up
    to receive notification!

    Your Name:
    E-Mail Address:
    Enter the correct numbers into the field below:
     

    Date of your Birth:



    Return to top of page

    Buy & Sell Exchanges | Forums | Galleries | Site Map

    FORUM GUIDELINES: Please review the guidelines below before posting at WOODWEB's Interactive Message Boards (return to top)

  • WOODWEB is a professional industrial woodworking site. Hobbyist and homeowner woodworking questions are inappropriate.
  • Messages should be kept reasonably short and on topic, relating to the focus of the forum. Responses should relate to the original question.
  • A valid email return address must be included with each message.
  • Advertising is inappropriate. The only exceptions are the Classified Ads Exchange, Machinery Exchange, Lumber Exchange, and Job Opportunities and Services Exchange. When posting listings in these areas, review the posting instructions carefully.
  • Subject lines may be edited for length and clarity.
  • "Cross posting" is not permitted. Choose the best forum for your question, and post your question at one forum only.
  • Messages requesting private responses will be removed - Forums are designed to provide information and assistance for all of our visitors. Private response requests are appropriate at WOODWEB's Exchanges and Job Opportunities and Services.
  • Messages that accuse businesses or individuals of alleged negative actions or behavior are inappropriate since WOODWEB is unable to verify or substantiate the claims.
  • Posts with the intent of soliciting answers to surveys are not appropriate. Contact WOODWEB for more information on initiating a survey.
  • Excessive forum participation by an individual upsets the balance of a healthy forum atmosphere. Individuals who excessively post responses containing marginal content will be considered repeat forum abusers.
  • Responses that initiate or support inappropriate and off-topic discussion of general politics detract from the professional woodworking focus of WOODWEB, and will be removed.
  • Participants are encouraged to use their real name when posting. Intentionally using another persons name is prohibited, and posts of this nature will be removed at WOODWEB's discretion.
  • Comments, questions, or criticisms regarding Forum policies should be directed to WOODWEB's Systems Administrator
    (return to top).

    Carefully review your message before clicking on the "Send Message" button - you will not be able to revise the message once it has been sent.

    You will be notified of responses to the message(s) you posted via email. Be sure to enter your email address correctly.

    WOODWEB's forums are a highly regarded resource for professional woodworkers. Messages and responses that are crafted in a professional and civil manner strengthen this resource. Messages that do not reflect a professional tone reduce the value of our forums.

    Messages are inappropriate when their content: is deemed libelous in nature or is based on rumor, fails to meet basic standards of decorum, contains blatant advertising or inappropriate emphasis on self promotion (return to top).

    Libel:   Posts which defame an individual or organization, or employ a tone which can be viewed as malicious in nature. Words, pictures, or cartoons which expose a person or organization to public hatred, shame, disgrace, or ridicule, or induce an ill opinion of a person or organization, are libelous.

    Improper Decorum:   Posts which are profane, inciting, disrespectful or uncivil in tone, or maliciously worded. This also includes the venting of unsubstantiated opinions. Such messages do little to illuminate a given topic, and often have the opposite effect. Constructive criticism is acceptable (return to top).

    Advertising:   The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not an advertising venue. Companies participating in a Forum discussion should provide specific answers to posted questions. WOODWEB suggests that businesses include an appropriately crafted signature in order to identify their company. A well meaning post that seems to be on-topic but contains a product reference may do your business more harm than good in the Forum environment. Forum users may perceive your references to specific products as unsolicited advertising (spam) and consciously avoid your web site or services. A well-crafted signature is an appropriate way to advertise your services that will not offend potential customers. Signatures should be limited to 4-6 lines, and may contain information that identifies the type of business you're in, your URL and email address (return to top).

    Repeated Forum Abuse: Forum participants who repeatedly fail to follow WOODWEB's Forum Guidelines may encounter difficulty when attempting to post messages.

    There are often situations when the original message asks for opinions: "What is the best widget for my type of shop?". To a certain extent, the person posting the message is responsible for including specific questions within the message. An open ended question (like the one above) invites responses that may read as sales pitches. WOODWEB suggests that companies responding to such a question provide detailed and substantive replies rather than responses that read as a one-sided product promotion. It has been WOODWEB's experience that substantive responses are held in higher regard by our readers (return to top).

    The staff of WOODWEB assume no responsibility for the accuracy, content, or outcome of any posting transmitted at WOODWEB's Message Boards. Participants should undertake the use of machinery, materials and methods discussed at WOODWEB's Message Boards after considerate evaluation, and at their own risk. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages it deems inappropriate. (return to top)


  • Forum Posting Help
    Your Name The name you enter in this field will be the name that appears with your post or response (return to form).
    Your Website Personal or business website links must point to the author's website. Inappropriate links will be removed without notice, and at WOODWEB's sole discretion. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    E-Mail Address Your e-mail address will not be publicly viewable. Forum participants will be able to contact you using a contact link (included with your post) that is substituted for your actual address. You must include a valid email address in this field. (return to form)
    Subject Subject may be edited for length and clarity. Subject lines should provide an indication of the content of your post. (return to form)
    Thread Related Link and Image Guidelines Thread Related Links posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should point to locations that provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related Link that directs visitors to an area with inappropriate content will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    Thread Related File Uploads Thread Related Files posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. Video Files: acceptable video formats are: .MOV .AVI .WMV .MPEG .MPG .MP4 (Image Upload Tips)   If you encounter any difficulty when uploading video files, E-mail WOODWEB for assistance. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related File that contains inappropriate content will be removed, and uploaded files that are not directly related to the message thread will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links, files, or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    Doucet Machinery
    Sponsors

    Become a Sponsor today!