I am in the beginning phases of discussing a wine room with a customer and with as we all know, the cost of materials are ridiculously expensive no matter what you use. What do you guys feel would be the most cost-effective wood, yet would be stable enough to be used in a temperature controlled wine room?

I'm not overly thrilled with using pine, and the customer is not either, but my next best guess would be redwood cedar… I'm assuming the type of cedar you would buy from say Home Depot.

Mahogany, I can get from a supplier, but I know it's going to be up there in cost. What are anyone's thoughts about any other type of species of wood that would work well for a temperature controlled wine room?

Also, they want to have a table of sorts built into this, and that would require some type of finish to be applied to it, (which consideration, if wine get spilled on the table, it needs to have some type of protectant.) so I was thinking a high end acrylic urethane by ilva, since that is an interior/exterior finish.

For the wine racks themselves, I don't believe they need to have a finish on them, but I could be wrong. Thoughts? Natural im assuming because of the smell permeating out of it would not be good for the wine.

In regard to construction, how would you guys typically construct wine racks, because I know if I were to use staples of sort and or pin nails, the moisture getting to them would end up rusting them out and causing black streaks to come down.

Any information you guys can provide and/or links to websites would be wonderful. Thanks in advance.

LOL, the poor wine snobs can’t afford a proper cellar these days😂.

How much moisture are you talking about in this room? I’ve done a few and never had to worry about using treated or stainless fasteners to avoid black streaks from oxidation.

Why does the wood have to be overly stable? You say it will be temperature controlled, I assume you meant climate controlled. I can’t imagine it would go from very dry to very humid in a wine room.

If it’s a budget job, use plywood uprights, and attach wood cleats to them. Quick and easy.

I find it ironic that you are trying to skimp on the wood, but going for an expensive product for a finish.

The picture shows one we did that was quick to make. Prefinished all the parts in oil polyurethane, then assembled. Red oak is the wood.

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Mike -You need to talk to a wine seller. Go to a good size wine store one day, when they just opened (no crowd) and ask if you can ask a few questions. Be polite, dress sharply, hand out cards.
Or, spend 2 hours online researching wine cellar construction.

Yes, it is odd that you are skimping on wood, but using an odd finish. I assume you are a finisher before woodworker. Or a newly christened professional.

My thoughts: Redwood is the traditional wood, and it is always left unfinished. It is pinned to make the racks. The table top needs a conversion varnish or similar, well- cured. The rooms are conditioned, with temp and humidity controlled. 60 degrees, about 55% RH, if I recall. This is not so unusual that you need to stand on your head for any part of what you do. You do know about the hygroscopic property of wood, correct? You don't want movement causing problems.

The redwood I see today is garbage compared to the old growth I used to work with. Growth rings so far apart as to resemble a sponge. Source old growth Redwood so your joinery (pins) will not be diverted by the rings.

If the client is trying to save money, he can buy racking by the foot on the internet. If you are less than the internet, then you will loose money on the job.

Let me make a few things clear. I am not a newbie in this business, rather, I am a newbie to wine cellar, construction. I'm not saying we have to use a cheap wood, nor is the client, but I'm looking for different options to provide them. I asked for opinions on things, and not to be chastised by it. If mahogany or something else is the ideal wood species to use in a climate controlled room, then, that is what I will sell them on. Once again, I'm looking for opinions from people who have done this and have been successful doing it.

Climate controlled Id use any well sawn and dried species that tickles their fancy (and budget). Its just whats available to you locally and that you both feel worthy of the project. Screw the snobs.

I apologize if you feel I was chastising you. Your post offered little professional context, and led me to think you did not know how to proceed.

The wine purists will probably want Redwood, unfinished. Apparently, any finish is thought to be able to alter the wine. The wine cellars I have been involved with were all redwood unfinished, or cherry, finished.

Mostly, we made doors for wine cellars. These were always finished. Since the rooms were conditioned, we would weatherstrip the door, and use a shallow threshold. C

David, I came to this site because it's supposed to be only for us pros who seek help from other pros.

I don't care how long someone has been in this business, it's impossible to know everything. While I have 23 yrs of self employment in this trade, wine cellars are new to me, as I RARELY have inquiries for this aspect of the business.

The customer has done a fair amount of research from their end and now they're ready to hire a pro woodworker to execute their plans and help them make this be a professional end result.

We all have clients with champagne taste and a beer pocketbook. I was hoping to get some advice on species of wood, construction methods (assuming an 18 gauge stainless steel brad nail would work and not rust out like a typical brad nails would in say a "exterior" type climate.

Do you see anything wrong with using an acrylic urethane by ilva for the table top surface?

A local supplier to me is selling redwood 1x6 s4s for $5.78 a board foot

Africian mah 4/4 $8.76 bf and Honduran mah for $14.94.

It seems like mah would likely be the most durable way to go, but in your opinion, are one of the above said mah's better than the other or is it a "looks" difference?

African Mahogany has made me sad every time I've used it

I'd assume any species of wood will work. White oak would certainly be nice. Most pieces of Home Depot cedar are cut and dried for use as fencing. Nothing I would want to put in a wine cellar and watch the knots fall out and wood crack. Around here, soft maple is the wood of choice for budget work. I suspect alder would be the budget wood of choice in Western United States.

Eastern White Cedar or as we call it here in Michigan, Michigan white Cedar I usually get it for a couple of dollars a board foot. I try to buy direct from the sawmill. you will find it in northern Michigan I would refer you to someone but I have noy bought any for a long time. but i know it is still available

Mike - As far as I know, redwood does not have any special properties that make it amenable to wine storage. I would guess that as the original center of wine production, California once had Redwood everywhere, and for a reasonable price. It was there, close by and priced right.
You could follow suit and use a wood local to you. Most redwood I see in less the t/l quantity is S4S to 11/16 “ thickness. The two shops I know that make wine cellars rip it to 11/16”, then sand to .680 or so. Looks thin or light to me, but it is square. It is then sawn to length and ingloriously pinned in place using a jig and pinner. I don't think 50% RH will rust pins unless they are exposed. The upper end of humidity is 75% though, and that is humid. I would sleep better with stainless, brass or bronze for any fastening.
I do recall sassafras will not rust a nail, even when green, for what it is worth.
(I apprenticed in a shutter shop, and the exterior louvers all had bronze staples for the push rod/louver connection and brass pins at any exterior mortise and tenon joint.)

I am unfamiliar with the finish you mention. Our finish contractor always used conversion varnish for tabletops. Float any solid wood and give it room to expand, since your wood will likely be around 10% RH if a softwood, slightly less if a hardwood.

Best of luck, it sounds as if you have a good handle on a nice project. Not so much lately, but I used to see carpenters doing wine cellars as the very low bidders, and they did terrible work. The McMansion owner only cared that he was “saving” money.

I don't think anyone was chastising you for asking the question. Your original post though, the way it was put together, made me wonder if the poster was an amatuar woodworker. That was partly due to the mentioning of pine as an option. I couldn't imagine building something that takes a beating from bottles out of a soft wood like pine. Even redwood (although I defer to David's knowledge of it as a standard material for this type of project) if you could get your hands on some decent stuff, is pretty soft in my opinion.

Personally I would suggest Sapele. Being a mahogany substitute it will have the elegance of the real thing while being relatively cost effective. It's been a few years since I bought any volume of hardwood on the wholesale level but I'd think you could get sapele in the $5 to $7 a board foot range.

For finish with Sapele you could go with a hard shell varnish type product or just use a penetrating oil.

I'll confess to knowing nothing about wine cellars per se. But I do know that climate control will maintain a narrow range of temperature and humidity. I'd be surprised to learn that the humidity level is high enough to be a concern for wood rot or fastener rusting. But they do call them wine "cellars" so I could be wrong about that. If so the wood will certainly stand up to the humidity and you can use stainless steel fasteners as you suggested yourself.

Lots of good suggestions above for very knowledgeable people.

BH Davis

I did one in white oak 20yrs ago
It had a wall mounted chiller and a barrel ceiling done in reclaimed wine and whiskey barrel flooring
I'm in touch with them regularly and to my knowledge hasnt fallen off the walls yet or the small table self destructed
Spanish Cedar would be my second choice, especially on a budget
I too missed the tone of chastisement...may want to skip that third cup of coffee

It's so nice to know i can come to a forum of "professionals", for a few of you I'll use that term loosely, to get some honest feedback, without being an ass.

I simply asked for help, not a bunch of wiseass remarks from a few of you who clearly have a problem acting like grown ups.

If you get off your high horses and think back to those projects were you had little knowledge about and looked to receive advice from those more experienced in that area, I'm quite certain you wouldn't appreciate the back handed ignorance feedback.

I didn't ask to be criticized on asking if a certain material was a silly and amateur question to ask, to be an ass about me asking what budgetary species you'd recommend, nor be treated disrespectfully, all because I'm seeking help from those who have successfully done this.

Thanks for the ignorant remarks and to coffee man, maybe you can find a place to put your cup.

Mike,
Dont let the presumptuous responses scare you off. You havs to realize there is a long/short term shift going on between the old guard and those who adapt. You have tl see the value in being wiling to filter it out and take the data thats advantageous and sh+t can the rest.

There are zero places to get viable input other than leaening the hard way so dont lose faith. The old guard have valuable.input even though they can come off as pricks... its better than the pinterest youtube crowd any day.

Mark,

I will agree there are some seasoned individuals on here who can provide quality advice and YouTube or google won't give the same expertise, but when people want to be jackasses for no other reason than being a keyboard commando, it becomes pointless to even bother asking for advice if people think it's mature to be ignorant to others with less experience than them in a certain area.

I'm quite certain I have more knowledge on some parts of woodworking than those individuals.

I'm guessing they forgot the saying their parents probably told them.....if you have nothing nice to say.....

I THOUGHT this group was for pros to help pros and not ridicule them for questions they may feel are "green".

I can guarantee those individuals don't know everything about woodworking and have plenty they can learn themselves. They might even learn something from someone who's literally brand new to the business. If they think they can't learn anything from people who are actually newbies, they're the ones who are delusional.

I have never been ignorant enough to think I can't learn from someone with a lot less experience than me. Ive even learned things from some customers asking if something can be done a certain way that I never even thought of and they aren't even in the trades at all....just really smart people with great ideas

Way too serious in here
I didnt think your question was green at all, and offered a legitimate response in suggestion of wood species
A little levity makes work seem less like work, and that's kinda the point
Lots of GREAT advise to be had here to be sure
Levity-OFF

Mike,

I'm afraid no one here is out of line but you. There is no criticism of you or your question, just a few brief explanations of why the original post was taken a certain way. Your responses make me not want to respond to questions from you in the future.

I'd say that everyone here that has responded to you has posted questions of their own in the past. I know I certainly have and in some cases have taken a genuine beating by an occasional response. I never came back and criticized the respondents publicly. You can always click on a persons name and send them a private message if you have a problem with what they've said.

BH Davis

B.H.

Instead of people assuming I am a newbie, etc., all they could've done was answered my questions, but some people chose to take it a step further and give me rude remarks back. This goes back to what I was saying about how everyone in this business didn't just magically wake up and know what they know. They've learned it from asking questions and from others.

I myself started in this business well before websites like this for even around.

You can certainly choose to not respond to my questions in the future and that is your choice and your right.

If people would've just stuck to answering the questions I had and not put in backhanded comments, this posting could have been very educational for many other people aside myself.

For some reason, some people feel the need to critique someone's posting rather than to take it for face value and to help the individual specifically with the questions they have.

I believe websites like this were created with the sole purpose of being able to help other professionals from professionals and if people can't come to this website to do that and all that is going to happen is be criticized, then really what is the point?

I've known for the many years I have been in this business, that it is typical to razz one another, but at this stage in the game, it is just clearly rude and unacceptable to be a jerk to someone for no other reason than to just want to be a jerk, when they're just seeking honest help from those who have successfully done certain projects.

Mike, what specifically has made you upset, and you feel were rude comments?

My opening comment was satirical, and an observation of some customers I/we get. Like the person trying to build a McMansion and wanting to do it on the cheap.
Your comment on not knowing what material costs are could have also led some to believe that you were a novice. A bad assumption but an easy one to make.
Hopefully things work out and you stick around!

Matt,

It's simple and could have stayed that way. For example.

I ask a question or questions and

What should've happened is.....

Answer the questions honestly based on someone's previous experience of doing something like this similarly and not assuming I'm a novice in the business.

People come to this website, I'm assuming, to seek the knowledge of others who have had experience doing the things they may not have done before I was looking for honest feedback.

If it would've just stuck to that, there would be no issue whatsoever and no reason for me to have made my comments back the way I did.

I openly admitted I have never done a project like this before (most true professionals in this business would not be willing to put their tail between their legs and admit they don't know something, especially those who have been in the business as long as I have) and seeking help.

I don't need people to tell me how to run my company or that by me asking about certain materials is an elementary question based on something I have never had experience doing before...... this is one of those situations where when if you don't ask questions, it can actually hinder the success of a project.

I guess this day in age of the Internet and keyboard commandos, it is free will, for anybody to be a jack wagon. I can guarantee the most of the people who have made comments the way they did that were off topic of helping me, would never say that to someone's face.

I have said my peace, and if people want to continue to offer polite responses to help my situation, I would appreciate it, but if not, I will find a way to allow my project become successful.

The cost of wood is rarely an issue when someone wants to build a wine room, Yet very easy to gather from the nearest hardwood supplier's price sheet. Labor is going to be the big charge by far, but even that will be a tiny fraction of what will be spent for the wine collection. I gave you several options, but I too wondered why a professional would ask the internet about choosing wood species.

I think that Matt's recommendation is dead on- plywood for the cases and verticals, wood strips for the bottle holders...tasteful, budget friendly, and cost effective assembly and installation
If it's being constructed as an architectural statement, budget seems less of a major criteria to factor in
If my coffee comment flipped over your cart, my apologies as well
I've been know myself to be a tad bit intense and wound a little too tight on the job, so I try to lighten the atmosphere and not take things too seriously whenever I'm conscious of it
Makes it smoother for everyone involved, myself included

We used polpar for one with a stain and cherry for the other. 600+ bottle wine cellars with decanting station. The wood has no problem with whatever humidity control you have. End of story.

Plus glue and 16 ga pin nails on the frames. There will never be an issue with humidity affecting the nails.

If you have a supplier in your area, check out Red Grandis. It’s a plantation grown species that is more affordable, very easy to work with and doesn’t have any issue effecting the wine.

this photo is my one and only true wine cellar. The contractor had another shop build the exact same layout using redwood (not commonly available in our area) and they pinned with 18 gauge. To maximize storage, some of the rows are double depth and flexed with the building techniques they used. After several bottles were broken trying to load the racks, they decided to tear it out and I was brought in to replace. My method included using glue on each joint and front and back horizontal pieces that had dados to keep everything aligned. I also made full height spacing jigs bc the height of the units compounded any slight variations of using a single spacer that was transferred to use for each opening.
Also, I underbid this job in material and time. Breaking the edges of each horizontal piece is fine when it’s a few hundred, but when it’s tens of thousands, slight miscalculations add up. I did not use any finish, but gave the client an option for using a formaldehyde free CV with the disclaimer that I wasn’t responsible if it effected the wine. Like any new project that’s outside your normal work, you just need to do more research and be prepared to pay a little “stupid tax”.

good luck.

Dub

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Very nice. What wood is that?
Dan

Wow @Dub, that is some impressive work!