Hi, I was thinking about it and I think I would like to post my experience for benefit of young men getting into this trade. In short, if your going to be a cabinetmaker you are probably better off as an employee.
I spent most of my 20's obsessed with woodworking. Every weekend I was in there honing my craft. Every spare penny was spent on this 'hobby'. I personally gave up on cabinetmaking 10 years ago and went with self employment in general remodeling. I turn down work.
My point is in 10 years of doing this I think I have been offered 5 cabinet type jobs. This is in two states. I honestly don't see the work as being out there in the volume reqd to have a chance at being a going concern doing just cabinets.
As an employee, look for a mid to large size company that does the type of stuff you like. Be prepared to spend 5 years working hard for so so pay on the shop floor. After a little seasoning, you can maybe move into management. There are tons of opportunities.
Good luck, your mileage may vary!

Neither is honestly all that viable without being an extremely shrewd and savvy business person. Guy hobble around in the remodeling trade with cobbled together trucks, meeting their customers at the homecenter to pickout and pay for materials (because they want to work for cash and not have to handle the material money) on and on. I pickup odds and ends at the home center occasionally and its plain as day to see a remodeler or painter in their "whites" walking along clearly with the homeowner buying a box of this, a gallon of that, and even loading it in her car.

Anything from homebuilding, to remodeling, to and subcontracting trade, right on through cabinets, can be a nightmare.

The only way to quantify your viability for "turning away work" is how large is your retirement/investment portfolio? How many paid weeks a year do you take off? How well do you sleep? Those and those alone are your quantifiers of success as compared to being an employee. The villiage idiot can work for 10 bucks an hour and be turning away work 365 and sundays, three of those days weekly are spent repairing the jalopy and in the end the 400 a week is more like 240 and the tax man will come-a-knockin,..

Its all about how sound you are as a business person and that even applies to employment. Advancing your career is no different than advancing your business. No disagreement that going to work in a cabinet shop today your likely going to be standing in front of a machine loading or off-bearing parts. Not much in the way of cabinet making.

Worked for others in the beginning. Getting laid off when they were slow sucked. Happened too often. Went on my own and struggled at first to make a name for myself. Took years, had to take jobs I didn't want when times were slow. Didn't stay strictly with just cabinet, I would have to kill myself if it was just making boxes all day.

So mix it up with paneling, furniture, moldings, doors and entryways and your clientele base multiplies.

Lately I'm always busy. Of course you got through feast and famine, that's just the way of the business - that can't be stopped.

Now I have clients worrying that I might retire on them because they like to move from house to house to remodel it.

The cabinet trade has the benefit of 24-7 overhead that other trades don't have.

Cabinetmaking is an attractive job in theory, everyone wants to be a cabinetmaker similiar to photographer, musician, actor etc

With the Chinese imports, automation, cheap prices from immigrants there is downward pressure on prices.

Home sales are booming (as predicted) yet there is no activity on this site?

Apparently cabinetmaking is not a good career choice?

Cabinetmaking is a good career choice only if you're willing to play the long game and treat it like any other business. And by long, I mean decades. You will never amass generational wealth standing at a bench. But if you build a well run successful company where cabinets just happen to be the end product, you can do very well. But that can be said for any business, cabinets are no different. What does it mean to be a cabinetmaker? An employee assembling boxes at a bench is no more a professional cabinetmaker than a guy standing in a ditch with a shovel is an excavation contractor. You need to get out of the ditch, and that takes a whole other skill set and a long, long time.

Posts like Joels to me always read like they should moreso be titled "Wood Artisan" or furniture maker. People that enjoy woodworking, no different than any other craft/trade/hobby typically tend to romanticize the endeavor. That its all creativity, bespoke work, a varied work day filled with glee. That speaks more to a fine furniture shop than a cabinet maker though there can be some overlaps.

I started making cabinets because a good friend of mine offered me a job learning how to build them as a part time apprentice.

15 years later, I'm still doing cabinets, but I dont' come here for the novelty anymore, that wore off after about 4 years.

Now I get my enjoyment out of seeing others learn new skills. I manage the production line now so I get to train people how to run automated equipment, how to spray, how to use a tablesaw.

I also get my kicks out of troubleshooting, and there's a never ending flow of trouble to shoot, these days.

If your goal is to build cabinets you should be an employee.

If your goal is to run a successful business that provides for your family and the families of the people that work for you a cabinet manufacturing business could be a good route. In my mind if you build a company that builds cabinets you should think "big". When I say big I mean a company that does at least $5M annually, hopefully $15M or more by the time you are done. At $15M you can sell it, not just sell the equipment.

Running a $5M company is easier that $1M company. A $10M is easier than a $5M. I am sure my views will not be popular with all. I look at it from purely a business perspective, not a trade or a passion.

I started my shop 14 years ago at 25 years old. I had no kids, no wife, and I managed my apartment building so no rent. I made almost no money for the first 5 years but I loved the work itself. I loved woodworking and machines and troubleshooting and the feeling that I was truly supporting myself. I finally got the finances straightened out (slowly) and although there are some aspects of running your own business that are less than desirable, I still love my work. I find that cabinetmakers are some of the most interesting and inventive people I have ever met. My boys love coming to my shop and "making stuff" as well as climbing the forklift (please spare the safety lessons), and seeing the machines go. I have a place to go with amazing machinery if I want to just putz around and make something. Having a well set cabinet shop enables you to make just about anything and that is as close to a superpower as you'll ever get in this world.

I’m slowly working to no Accts payable as I take 50 percent materials draw after shop drawings.

Don’t really have much left to pay, so that actually cuts the bookkeeping to minimum as we cut all checks every other Weds

After a few years I finally started making serious jack by ordering complete shipments and receiving as much of the job as possible at once.

We cut and fab the entire job including stone - quartz in one of shops and tell the gc to kiss my backside as I refuse to mobilize 10 times because they are so behind.

I recently let 80 corian sills sit on the ground until the rockers and framers fixed their substrate. I pointed to AWI and DuPont specs

Anyway. There is a f ton of money to be made by staying organized and sticking to the estimate. Certainly worth carving out a niche doesn’t hurt.

Us skilled Mechanics are a real rising breed.

In an economics class I learned that I could create wealth by taking a raw material and adding value to it through skilled labor.

I buy wood for $5.60 a board foot, make it into window sash, and sell it for $350. a board foot. Overhead is low, the shop is rent free, machinery is old and paid for, and no employees.

The key was finding a niche market that matches my skills with people's needs. Understanding that I am not an artist, and that people don't want my awkward furniture, helped me make what people want.

What Harold said

Niche market and skills. Identify both, then develop them in yourself. John McGinnis said it well - once you have the tools and know-how, you are a king.

People assume skills are not needed because of the newer high-tech machinery. Not true. Anyone can buy the same pencils Picasso used, or a guitar from Jorma Kaukonen. Doesn't mean you can do anything with either.

I am assuming anyone reading this already knows they cannot compete with Big Box stores or the Chinese. There are real custom cabinet opportunities, usually with commercial cabinets.

I would agree with Anonymous, Harold and David,
There are those who are cabinet makers and then there are those that are Business men who build cabinets.

I very glad you all did so well. What I am saying is that on the ground, residential customers, do not demand cabinetmakers very often. It just happened today. General remodeling customer talked about having me do a fireplace surround. I framed and finished same. Time to talk about it and she gets out a standard pre-made mantle catalogue. Materials for something custom would be about what they were charging for the finished product. Happens often.

Just to cut down on the conjecture

In So Cal the price for high end cabinets is $1000 a ft uppers and lowers, if you're capable of genuinely high end

$400 a ft for the ubiquitous PG Shaker type deal mostly made by Mexican shops

As mentioned you have to find a niche. This forum is a pretty good place to look for niches.

I recommend learning about Google Ads, if you are not on Google you don't exist

I have mentioned the reality is construction is going to be very strong for the next 4 years, i.e. a fact, barring anymore pandemics

After 40 years in custom wood and upholstered furniture we have never used Google and don't even have a website. The biz is wholesale to the design trade and simple to run. My guys have all been here for 35-40 years. Wife has pancreatic cancer now and I am old so will find a younger person who wants to take it over for the equipment cost only so my guys can keep working. We only do a half million a year now because I want to keep it small and simple. Provided a good living for us. We are definitely a niche business. Very loyal word of mouth designers.

Glen - So sorry to hear about the health problems. Getting older, one can expect and plan for, it is the illnesses that blindside us and often force our hand.

You appear to have a good example of a niche shop where your efforts no longer need to be on marketing, hiring, or collections. You are very fortunate. I am glad to hear you have plans to continue the shop and benefit the employees. May the good karma you have collected pay off now when you need it.

Joel, yes it is easier to make a remodeling business go if you are skilled with your hands. That’s a given, also easier to make better money at first.

Time moves on, your body hurts, if you haven’t built the business correctly ( runs and profits without you physically doing work ) then it starts to loose its benefit.

The cabinet maker has a line that churns out boxes at a set profit day in and day out ( also if he has set the company up correctly)

So actually both are viable , both can work , remodeling has a lower barrier to entry.

But I doubt that the same opportunity comes to the remodeler every day as cabinetmaker.

I never made any money until I automated, its just simple economics, invest thousands , make thousands , invest tens of thousands, make tens of thousands, invest hundreds, make hundreds the scales set themselves.

Learn how to trouble shoot and fix machines , that is what I would tell any newbie, that will get you farther than learning how to sharpen a chisel and carve a pediment for a high boy.

I love woodworking , but passion for it is passion and may or may not mean money and an easy life .

I dont know guys, it was hard work and a lot of long days, but I started with a sears craftsman table saw and a 10th grade education, ended up with a pretty advanced CNC shop running CV. Did not competitively bid a job in the last 10 yrs, I just sold my building and equipment, and am fully retired at 59,reasonably comfortable with everything I want. My point is with hard work, good decision's, and some stubborn thrown in, it can be a decent life.

That’s the most depressing post I’ve seen. Sorry that it hasn’t worked out for you. Running a profitable and productive business of any kind isn’t for everyone. I don’t know where your at or what you do, but there are thousands of profitable shops out there making great money and helping their employees provide for their families as well.
Getting the knowledge and discipline to know run a business is just as important as the skills to needed to build a product.

It is a bummer. Sorry to depress anyone but that is the way it goes for me. Every few months a customer expresses an interest in cabinetry and almost invariably they lose interest when they get the estimate.
Tbh I think some of you guys are blowing sunshine when you talk about all the profitable shops etc. It can be done I suppose but it is very very difficult.
As far as my work goes I think it's time to at least look into a web presence. Next time I am ahead that is happening.

I guess that was depressing too. Take out one of the very's :)

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If you are making custom furniture work the designer trade. They have the customers with real money and they also make a killing. $150 an hour plus 35% on everything they buy for the job. If I had a knockout body and was good looking I would have been a designer. We just finished a desk for $10000 and the clients loved it. We make really good margins and it is a no hassle biz. The designer gets the customers, they tell us what to build and nothing goes out until it is paid for. No retail sales tax hassle either. You can do it.

Contract Manufacturing is tough. You have to have a certain mental and emotional toughness to last through the lean times. This forum has been great in keeping me and my tiny shop relevant and up to speed with the times. And I learned about this forum/site from going to my first trade show 17 years ago. One of the best pieces of advice ive had from here was to get in contact with my local SCORE office, which is a service of the SBA. The coaching has been simple but effective, and they can help you with many areas of your business. Employees are mostly a bummer in this field unless you run a bangin outfit that can pay really well to attract people with skill.

Looking into aWeb presence? Are you saying you don’t have a website? How about a sales program?

Tough love Joel, prepare yourself...

You don't have what it takes to be successful in this business. These are some of the things you'd need to change to even have a prayer:

1. You don't believe it's possible

2. You have a shitty attitude (let's not forget when you called the collective forum "dicks" for not responding to one of your inquiries fast enough for your liking)

3. You have no clue how or don't see the value in networking and doing the legwork necessary to put your business within arm shot of customers that are willing to pay for custom work. Or you don't have the business acumen to land a sale when the opportunity presents itself

4. You don't understand the importance of professional looking photography. If you're planning to launch a website with images like you just posted...don't waste your time

5. If you want to get recognized as a highly skilled woodworker you will have to learn how to produce more interesting pieces than a generic looking cerca 1987 tchotchke display cabinet

6. There's a lot of competition, what separates you from the field? I'm not seeing anything

7. You have to really want it and be willing to push yourself past your comfort zone. You don't

Thought would give an update. I am plugging right along with the remodeling. Qouted an existing customer for a 3K bathroom cabinet thing. As was expected, no word in three weeks. Did contact a few designers as was recommended. Not even a return call from them. I hate to say it but I stand by my previous assertion, if you want to be a cabinetmaker you will have much better opps on a long term employee track. Yes 1/500 have a thriving business. Bad odds iffin you ask me. Chow

Joel,
I'm curious now , have you ever worked on a remodel of a kitchen ? Did they not spend 15-35 k on the cabinets ? Or 200k ?Someone makes those cabinets.

Perhaps your circle of work is just not on the level that requires or lends itself to bigger things.

I had 4 Appts this week. What started out as a master closet only quote into a 5 closet do the whole house deal for $4700. Knock on door to getting in my truck to leave with signed paperwork and deposit and job designed in cabinetvision 1.5 hours. This will be ready to run in 15-20 minutes of work on computer at shop.
Appt 2, garage cabinets for small garage $5500 2.5 hours in the house as we talked a lot emailed contract and got back same day.
Appt 3 I had been to previously and signed contract on 6k worth of closets and gave them quote on garage with a $1500 up charge for high gloss doors. They called and we talked 5 minutes and they said proceed. I showed them a picture of an 8k garage we had done in high gloss that we had installed the week before with 3 guys in 5 hours
Appt 4 $18,000 garage job for a guys cabin.
We do 600 installs a year like this and probably 800-1,000 design appts.

I did have one that I’ll probably lose money on, a couple of cabinets and bed platform for a friends Sprinter van. Came out great but have more time invested in that project figuring stuff out.

Success in the woodworking business is rarely because people are bad at woodworking. They are bad at marketing and sales and producing an item in an effeminate manner that allows the owner to make a profit. 1 quote in 2 weeks doesn’t a successful business make.

My circle of work consists of small remodels in working peoples homes. I have done a few high end kitchens for fancy pants GC's but they are always so cheap I do not chase them. I am thankful for the work I get. Just po lately that my early years slavin in my shop have never paid off.
It must be me this, i'm small time that. Why can't you guys just admit that there might be better options out there. A guy starts at 23 serves his time for five years. If they have a head on their shoulders you can walk right into management for $60K starting. Design, sales/estimating, PM, foreman etc. I am trying to help these kids!

Joel, perhaps if you worked with people you liked, it might be easier. I know what you mean about slick general contractors that trash subs.However, there are decent GC's out there.

One way to get better work is find the people that you want to work for within 45 minutes of where you live. Find out what they need, and build that.

Hire a photographer out of a photography school, get some good photos. Hire a young front end web developer that has a good design eye. Copy some web sites from non-local businesses that match your niche. Draw with a computer, and email plans. These are things customers and contractors need. If you don't have a web presence, you look sketchy to homeowners. When they look me up, they can find photos of me, my business, where I live, where I have lived for 55 years, my Town activities, and the 15,000 photos I have taken of plants and animals. (if they have no life, they can look at them.)

Marketing is research first, to see what people need and want. Second it's configuring a business to meet people's desires. Third, it's approaching those people to let them know you can help them.

I get lots of inquiries from people I can't help, or don't like. If the problem customer charge doesn't cover the pain of dealing with them, I send them to someone else. General contractors with the wrong bumper stickers on their trucks are not worth the trouble. There will be trouble.

Glen, Sorry about your wife, I’m praying for her

And how about it from the young people? There must be one or two of you reading this. You gonna become a millionaire or tow the line like I told ya???

Joel -

I intend no disrespect towards you or anyone else.

What I was stating in my first post was that I now have control of my business and I run it to make a profit.

I hope you the best and that you can get some peace.

Always remember that you have a skill that most people envy

To answer Joel - I am a "young person" (30). I have had my shop for about 5 years, a one man shop. I am in the process of closing up shop now. I will recount a brief summary of my experience below, in case it is helpful for someone else down the line.

I broke even every year until the last 2 paying myself $1,000/week. I lost a little last year after losing 3 months to building closures and project delays (NYC, March/April/May 2020) and was on track to lose a bit more this year after 2 real stinkers this summer. My speciality was mostly millwork and cabinetry design/build for old homes. I mostly served homeowners but had 1-2 contractors I worked with when they needed built-ins.

I would not say at all "if you like building cabinets, be an employee" or "your future is better as an employee" but I will agree with all who have said to succeed in this business, you need to run a business, not a glorified hobby. That is one of my failures. I am shutting my shop because I realized I have no interest, personally, in scaling up my business and not being the one designing and building. I have realized that I want to be a glorified hobbyist, with my hands touching all aspects of the project. I am better served toiling away in a garage for myself or friends/family on weekends than running a cabinetmaking business. There were plenty of warnings that this is not a viable business model and for 3 years I ignored them because I broke even and made some really nice projects. It was hard to admit to myself I had no path, with my current business model, to give myself a raise. At least more than to keep pace with inflation in 5 years. And as someone who lives in an expensive area (New York Metro Area) and wants a family, $52,000/year wasn't going to cut it.

But I have enjoyed the last 5 years, mostly. I have lost sleep when I was not busy enough; I have lost sleep when I was too busy. But that's the cost of the freedom being self-employed offers, which can't be discounted.

I won't wade too deeply into the "employee" side of the equation Joel posited, given my personal experience. I worked in 3 shops in New York City before starting my shop and had bad experiences in all (late/missing pay, no ability to learn because the other cabinetmakers exclusively communicated in a language I don't speak, etc.). Had I been in a good situation, I'm sure I would have loved being an employee! However I never had benefits at any of those shops and wouldn't have been paid $52,000/year for at least 5-6 more years after I left (not including my 'benefits' now, like my business paying my truck and gas and insurance). Though it isn't all about money.

If you want to run a business and like cabinetry, start a cabinet business. If you're making a go of it hanging a shingle outside your garage - more power to you! But have a plan to grow. If you want to make cabinets, and that's all you ever want (or woodwork of any kind), then you may be happier as a foreman in a high end shop doing great work. Do you want to own the relationship to the cabinetry or the clients?

Hope this is helpful to someone and happy to answer any questions about my failure as a business owner or otherwise.

Drew,

Your post made me really think. I believe that your ability to recognize your "failure" will set you up for great success in the future because you see it for what it is.

The profession of cabinet making, or better said the business of cabinet making has and is changing.

It is more automated and requires the investment of a lot of capitol to compete these days.

That being said it has one of the lowest ROI for effort and capitol invested in my opinion.

I was an installer for 25 years before starting up my shop which gave me the ability to see what worked and what did not from the perspective of the guy who had to "sell" the customer on being happy with the finished product. I was the face that the customer was seeing and the last point of contact so I knew what the product needed to be in order to walk away paid with a happy customer.

When I started my shop I thought I could get by with a CNC ( two spindles, no tool changer ) and an ok bander ( mid 90's holzher ) a 32 mm boring machine and a martin slider, case clamp , double head widebelt and big (sac ) planer.

I actually believed that I had so much experience over the last 25 years that I could make money with this set up.

What I found was that I could not compete at all. The other guys in town were a lot better and faster than I was at making cabients. They had CNC's with drill banks, tool changers, forklifts, automated finish lines, engineers who were good at CV and microvellum, etc etc etc...

I was in pretty deep at this point and by stubbornness, stupidity, or some mix of both I decided I had to push foreward and keep down this path.

I went to the bank to get the money I needed for the equipment I needed to catch up to and compete with everyone else. They said without a history of profitable cabinet making I was too much of a risk to invest in.

So I sold my house ( had been in it for 24 years ) and proceeded to buy big boy tools, NC Bander, NC bore and Insert, delivery truck, big iron cnc , forklift, leased more space, etc etc etc....

Now I am doing fairly well, but would have probably been money ahead if I had just gone into house flipping, or doubled down on the install/remodel business and cleaned it up and ran it smarter.

My point is that cabinet making, IMHO, is more like manufacturing and less like craftsmanship than I realized even when I was immersed in it every day. I used to see the prices that the cab companies were getting for their work and think that they were getting rich !!!

The reality of most things is not what we think it is because we only see it through our own lens that has been shaded by our own experiences, beliefs, and perceived versions of reality.

I have mad respect for anyone who makes sawdust for a living, it's not an easy road at all.

I'm 39 and have had the shop for 10 years, its been a hard road to get where it is now. 6 employees, Newer CNC equipment etc.

As the others have stated it can be done , you can make a good living off a cabinet shop but its not going to happen right away. I took quite a few years till I was paying myself well

Sorry you had a tough run at it Joel. This and any business takes hard work and perseverance to succeed