Message Thread:
Training an CNC operator hybrid
8/4/21
Hey guys,
I have a growing small business in the DC region. 3 man (plus me), residential. I recently purchased a CNC last fall, and have been teaching myself how to operate it, in addition to dialing in the engineering of the cabinetry for cnc operations (Mozaik, machined tenons, etc).
My plan is to take my lead cabinet maker and train him to operate the cnc, edgebanding operations, with less emphasis on the bench. Moving him more towards shop foreman. He's younger (30), very detail oriented, slow on the bench and general operations. I thought though, with his love for learning and detail oriented, this would really be a good move for him -- and me.
My quandary simply put, what would a pay schedule look for something like this as a trainee, and a blend of duties? I would like for him to understand the machine better than me, and he's willing to learn G code, how the machine works, and Mozaik. I've thought to move him to a salary with increased pay as he gains knowledge and proficiency, but am curious how you guys might treat the situation. I haven't read up on the going rate for a CNC operator, but he is currently paid well. With my always approach to self-learning, I'm not sure how an employee would do with this? Honestly, I think outlining a contract with my expectations would be the best route -- with benchmarks -- but seeing as I've never been professionally trained as a CNC operator, I don't know what that would look like or what qualities a operator would have. It seems to me they would need to have some level of understanding of the drawing program too. Especially because we are a small shop.
Anyway, any thoughts or advice would be appreciated.
Best,
Ben
8/4/21 #2: Training an CNC operator hybrid ...
Not taking anything away from you or him, you have a drive and expectation he may likely never meet and your concept of benchmarks to me are the pitfalls we as owner operators always fall into with employees. Your going to hold him to a standard (your own) that he/she may likely never achieve because they are not the business owner with the risk attached. Its the old "if there were just two, or three, of me.."
You dont state at all what your notion of "well compensated" is for his current station though your location would speak to reasonable compensation. 35k a year with insurance, sick leave, 401k? Or $20 an hour? Or.. ??
In my world in a depressed area, if I had a well rounded team player who was an eager sponge doing research at night watching TV and had a few trade magazines/tech manuals in a basket next to the toilet at home for some off-time perusal... I could easily see 40K+ if the work was there. Thats an all around guy that is fully engaged, looking at shortfalls, making tweaks, maintaining and operating a bander (headache), looking at up and downstream issues, autonomous,...
8/4/21 #3: Training an CNC operator hybrid ...
Thanks Mark.
To your question: $18 an hour, with paid sick, holiday, and 2 weeks vacation because he's been with me for 5 years.
8/4/21 #4: Training an CNC operator hybrid ...
Well... your bonus there may be the benchmarks, hopefully they light him on fire, and your end of it is doubling his salary. Who knows. You know what work youve got and how much more you could process if you were out from under what you pass on to him.
8/4/21 #5: Training an CNC operator hybrid ...
A man can provide for a family at $18/hr in the DC area? Wow, you have a bargain employee right there. I suspect you will loose him soon. Does your CNC operator have to do more than push a button, or is he doing CAD and programming what the software doesn't do? If you are sending clean files out into the shop, hire a 20 year old female computer wiz and teach her. Keep the skilled bench guy on the bench.
8/5/21 #6: Training an CNC operator hybrid ...
Ben,
As our shop has increased it's technology over the years, it has really opened my eyes to the types of employees you should be looking for. I spent too many years looking for cabinet makers when we were going through a hiring phase. The truth of the matter is that in today's world you do not need a cabinet maker/woodworker at every position within your company. We generate all of our parts & cutlists in the office after meeting with clients. We need good quality cabinet makers at the bench, we need a physically strong person who is comfortable with computers at the cnc machine. and "button pushers" at our razorgage cut off saw and our digitally controlled gang rip saw.
Center your focus on finding the right type of person for each department.
Also interesting is the fact that this person that currently works for you is "well compensated" at $18 an hour. We just added our 20th employee ranging from 30 years experience in the wood working field to "button pushers" that had no knowledge of woodworking when we initially hired them. Our lowest paid employee is @ $16.50 an hour. Our company also offers a full benefits package, 401K, medical,dental, PTO and a profit sharing program at the end of each year. This probably sounds like a lot to most people that will read this, but it has allowed us to build a "nucleus" with very low turnover. This allows us to focus on running the business vs the business running us.
Whatever decision you end up making, sounds like you have a good employee on your hands, don't risk losing him. Find out what he wants / expects from this position, and compensate accordingly.
8/5/21 #7: Training an CNC operator hybrid ...
I won’t chime in on the wages in DC but I will share my thoughts on cnc operators and cad users. A lot of shops see this as a single position and have 1 guy that does it all including programming at the machine. A properly set up cnc program can see the machine being operated by a minimally skilled/ experienced person. To help us with that, we have written our own manuals to complete the processes we need to accomplish on the machine for specific tasks. Makes it easy to train, gives you a bank of knowledge and machine operation is not dependent on “Bob” showing up for work.
We generate all code to run machine at a separate machine and by a separate operator so that cnc is not waiting for anything. Video is of our original manual that we have since added multiple process to
https://youtu.be/ce7Ym9Gf_Ms
8/5/21 #8: Training an CNC operator hybrid ...
$18 an hour for a skilled employee seems very low to me. I pay that much for a floor sweeper in Philadelphia, which has comparable costs to DC. You are setting up a situation where you invest in this guy and he takes all that you taught him to someone who will pay him a market wage. I would expect to pay north of $25/hr with full benefits for someone you describe, and I would be planning how to give him more as soon as he deserves it.
Just out of curiosity, what are the annual revenues for your shop?
8/5/21 #9: Training an CNC operator hybrid ...
Guys,
First of all, the subject is about training a hybrid. I really get where all of you are coming from, as you've setup your businesses in zones where employees perform very specific operations. I've been on the fence as to which direction I would like my business to go. In other words, would it be possible to have a business where everyone on the shop floor was quite capable and flexible at a broader range of tasks? This would make the business less brittle. OR setup my business to the model that you guys keep hammering in these posts. I appreciate that thought quite a bit, and ultimately I think it would be best to build my business this way, I just am pondering if its still profitable to build a more artisan style cabinet shop. We all know cabinetmakers are a dying breed, and technology is taking over our industry, however I've found so many customers who seek out the artisans -- far more than not. This has been my branding, as I've built this from the ground up.
My second gripe is I often hear "this is how you need to do it", from an owner who has 7+ employees. Or we have the shops that have one or two guys. What sucks is growing from 3 employees to 7 -- or in other words becoming fully functional in a by process zoned(lean) layout. Anybody have any good books on not so much a step by step (obviously) "how to grow your business", but, more of a principles approach? In my immaturity, I've delayed the fact that I need to write out all of my processes, assign zones, and figure out how my company would function individually at 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8... employees, and then figure out costs for each, etc...
With regards to labor rates: No, you cannot live in the DC and support a family with a wage of $18 an hour. That's not the case with my employee, and we have a very good relationship FWIW. We both have the understanding that the wages reflect the skill as well as good attitude and reliability. As I said we are a growing business, and everyone that works here understands this.
I would speak specifically to Adam: I would love to be able to offer a package like that to my employees -- this is the direction I'm going. We are a TEAM, and I'm trying to preserve the culture of woodworking, as well as take care of my guys. It is utterly impossible to compensate everyone in that capacity with 3 employees, given production time and rising material prices (even before), and current sellable market "price". I have my "nucleus", and now I'm building out.
I know you pay your guys well Paul! That's fantastic! You offer a very high quality product too, so that supports that. Again, you all are focusing on a business model that has a larger employee pool, and technology that supports the higher wages and sales that can support that.
Sales is hovering at $400k a year, with a growth rate of about 10%. A little less probably.
I looked at the BLS.gov for VA, and as a trainee CNC operator his current pay rate is on par, if not slightly on the lower end of the range noted for 2020.
I think there is a broader question underlaid here that I've often thought about posting on this forum. This stems from the fact that I've never spent time in a production shop, but rather built my business from the ground up on my own. I've read extensively about production shops, some on WW. Nuts and bolts, how processes are done, timed, etc. Really though, this shouldn't be the thread it should be posted on.
Thanks,
Ben
8/5/21 #10: Training an CNC operator hybrid ...
I think the undercurrent may be that we've all either been there, or are there, or are trying to move away from the sink hole of a perceived notion that people are seeking out artisans. Most definitely some are, some locations are. Its a wonderful situation if you can land on it where you can legitamately bill at your true shop rate for every hour from receptionist through to the pat on the back and not fooling yourself that you just cant bill for certain things and as an owner your just going to work a million hours and get paid for 40 (if your lucky).
A lot of the sentiment in your last post speaks a bit to that philosophy and if you have the luxury of landing on bespoke work that pays enough to support the romance of "woodworking" thats a wonderful thing.
You likely work all those extra uncompensated hours because you love what you do, you see the reward in what you do, its just what you know, whatever. Finding an employee that doesnt have a vested interest (profit sharing, good salary, whatever) that is going to be a long term phenom in this day and age (in my opinion) is looking for the needle in the haystack. As mentioned, its a ticking time bomb before you lose them to another shop or another profession all together and likely at the most inopportune time when your swamped.
Sucks that a passion for "the work" isnt the drive for many anymore unless they are a "creator" or "influencer" and have the perceived potential to make a fortune. Watch a few videos about processes like production veneer plants, process line work, a lot of people stand in front of a single machine all day long like drones and they do that because very few people now pay for bespoke work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFoTwFP5Qi4&t=568s
https://www.you tube.com/watch?v=1lNNMb_7qcE
Its seems finding the creative ones, as well as the ones who can be at peace running repetitive processes can be equally hard. But the carrot of a dental plan, health care, 401k, profit sharing, seem to me in these times a far better carrot than being an artisan.
Sucks, but is what it is.
8/6/21 #11: Training an CNC operator hybrid ...
Don't think that I haven't been in your shoes. I grew my shop from me alone to where I am today by making high end custom furniture for people who want artisans. If you are really looking for an answer as to how to have a workforce of highly skilled, flexible workers that will tolerate low pay, the answer is young men. They are, as the military well knows, stupid. They will tolerate everything you are offering for a while. Until they land the full set of adult responsibilities and expenses. If you haven't found a way to pay them what they could get elsewhere by then, you are toast. I know because I've been there. So keep going the direction you are going, and make sure that you are working towards a sales volume that will allow for more specialization and higher pay on your shop floor.
And I asked about your revenues for a reason. If I read you right, your operation has 4 workers and you are grossing about $400k. That's $100k a worker - which is not enough to sustain an adult workforce making enough money so that you don't have constant turnover. So raise your prices, and increase your productivity.
If you want to discuss this further, feel free to reach out to me directly. I'm not hard to find. I sincerely hope you find a solution to your problem, and that you succeed. But it won't be easy.
8/6/21 #12: Training an CNC operator hybrid ...
Thanks guys. Let me first say that my last post read with a lot of tension, however that wasn't my intention. I know all of you have likely been in my shoes in some capacity or another. I appreciate the responses and advice given.
Mark, I have this strange sense of deja vu with what you wrote and shared. I literally have seen that video before, likely shared by you!
I think its important for all of us to share a common understanding of "artisan". These days I'm finding it to be less of a Sam Maloof approach, and more of a custom design and built with machine aid to ensure quality. This is course in my case is applied to cabinetry rather than furniture. I am the guy that comes in on weekends to put the finishing touches on cabinetry before it goes out on Monday, grudgingly, or to give a big push to a job that's lagging behind, or remaking drawer pullouts that were made wrong.
Paul, appreciate it. It would be great to discuss this further! Let me consolidate my thoughts a bit, and then I'll reach out to you.
8/6/21 #13: Training an CNC operator hybrid ...
Just my opinion. A three man shop doesn't need a full time cnc operator. My router ran most of the day on Monday this week, then not at all the rest of the week. That's not uncommon. The longer it runs, the less time until it is put to work again.
Three employees. I don't work in the shop much anymore, (maybe 10 hours a week), so I don't really count as labor anymore, but I typically run the router.
It's good to have two operators. If I'm backlogged on the front side, the other guy can step in and run sheets, or program. He makes $30/hr, (no insurance benefits, but paid vacation), and like in any small shop, wears many hats. No job is too low in my operation. lol
But I still don't think you've got the throughput to justify a fulltime position. But all I have is a few paragraphs to pull from.
8/7/21 #14: Training an CNC operator hybrid ...
We have 14 of us. 6 can run the cnc 10 can run the bander and doweler
Be very careful to not pigeonhole one particular person.
The cnc will add tremendous capacity
Make sure and add to your sales as you add the expense and capacity
8/9/21 #15: Training an CNC operator hybrid ...
My shop manager makes 20 hr, plus quarterly bonuses. Comes out to about 46500 a year. We give all employees 7 paid holidays and two weeks paid vacation.
His job is similar to what you're hoping for. He manages tasks for 2 other employees (with pretty direct guidance from me), and does whatever is needed in the shop from running the cnc to sweeping the floor.
Attached is a comparison of cost of living here vs DC. I can't imagine working in the DC area in a skilled trade for less than 30 an hour.
View higher quality, full size image (663 X 803)
8/9/21 #16: Training an CNC operator hybrid ...
One additional note. The generally accepted benchmark for a well performing cabinet shop is 150k in revenue annually per full time employee. In DC I think you'd need to push that number closer to 200 in order to be sustainable.
Last year we came in around 145 per FTE. I'd like to get that number up, but my business partner and I both value a 40hr or less work week more than we value a slightly larger paycheck. We could get our work done with one less employee if we wanted to, but for us its not worth it.
8/9/21 #17: Training an CNC operator hybrid ...
Just so we're clear in terms of cost of living and wage rates.. My employee lives 2 hours removed from DC, not in DC, nor in the suburbs of the sprawl. Cost of living is substantially cheaper this far removed from the city. In addition to that, the location of the shop is 1.5 hours removed from the city... in order to keep costs low!
8/9/21 #18: Training an CNC operator hybrid ...
Looks like you have it all figured out then. Keep him at $18 and hour, and train him do program and run your CNC.
Please report back over the next 12 months on how that’s working out for you.
8/9/21 #19: Training an CNC operator hybrid ...
I definitely don't have it figured out Derrek, I just wanted to be clear for the next person that reads the previous posts, to maintain context.
I'll definitely report back as I figure out how to pay him more. There's been a blend of different responses, but everyone is pointing to more money -- which I agree. It also doesn't sound like structuring a salary with a contract as a way to go either. Especially not in my position with 3 employees, and everyone needs to be somewhat flexible.
8/9/21 #20: Training an CNC operator hybrid ...
Hey,
I'm in a very similar boat. Sales the same, employee count the same, machinery the same, and I use CabinetSense (not Mosaic).
I currently have one guy who can run the CNC, bander, and act as a foreman. The other guy is just a bench guy.
Ideally I would like to get to the point where I'm doing the sales, quoting, and design, and can hand off projects for my "hybrid" employee to do the CAM portion within Sketchup and then run it through CNC, assembly, and install. That's what I would suggest for the position you are talking about.
But your reality is going to depend entirely on the skill set of your employee. I would like this key employee of mine to do the CAM portion, but so far he has shown no interest, so I continue to do it.
8/10/21 #21: Training an CNC operator hybrid ...
Jeff Thomas,
Thanks for speaking to the per employee sales rates. I find this topic very interesting, but also rather clunky in terms of precise numbers. One thing I've found somewhat confusing about this is owners. I believe since I don't "count" myself as a bench guy or finisher(I just play fireman and push things through as needed), with 3 employees and one owner that would count as 3? So, if that were the case, then that would push my number to $133k per employee? If I subbed out installations, wouldn't I have to assign a percentage of that 400k a year to installations in order to get a more accurate per head count?
I agree Matthew. Smaller shops need flexibility with all the tasks at hand. If there are 6 or 7 different zones in a shop, 3 employees span the zones, and add fresh bodies until every zone is filled per man. Then perhaps analyze where the bottleneck is.
8/10/21 #22: Training an CNC operator hybrid ...
Ben,
That would only work if you don’t want to pay yourself.
The 150 a year per fill time employee is a guideline for how much one guy in the shop should be able to produce, it’s a benchmark for sales figures for a sustainable company.
We have 6 people in the company with about 4.5 in the shop. My business partner is almost never in the shop, and I’m in the shop about half the time.
We’re on pace to do about 850k this year. It’s a bit below the 150k per person, but we recently hired a project manager/lead installer intentionally for growth. We’re intentionally over staffed so that we can take on more. We had been turning away projects on a weekly basis from contractors we’ve been working with for awhile.
I do agree that the 150k per full time employee isn’t perfect. I could easily inflate my sales numbers by outsourcing everything I can. We don’t outsource much and we’ve historically been just below 150 per fte. If you’re profitable at 100k per employee I’m impressed. Just keep in mind that true profit means there’s more than enough to make payroll and pay rent. We follow the Profit First method and set aside 10 percent up front and force the company to live off of 90 percent. We typically can still have a bit more profit than the 10 percent, but we use it as a safety cushion for the future. The 10 percent gets distributed quarterly as bonuses split between employees and owners.
8/10/21 #23: Training an CNC operator hybrid ...
Profit should be over and above what you pay yourself as an owner. To many shop owners don’t pay themselves any thing and live off what’s left over and call that profit.
The 150k per employee needs to include all employees including office, not just your shop workers. More important is to know YOUR numbers and what you need to do to be profitable. Our sales team has target numbers for sales our install has a weekly goal amount and the shop know what they need to do. Our target for all production employees is $150 per hour in revenue. We review on a weekly basis
A week with 7 guys in shop and install installs 50k in 315 hours equals 158 per hour
8/10/21 #24: Training an CNC operator hybrid ...
People may leave for various reasons, not just the salary: they meet right girl and are ready to move to another city/state, they meet the wrong one and ruin themselves, they get struck by streetcar, lightning, bad case of Covid, or father in law leaves him a farm in Arizona so goodbye...
Instead of brewing a high skilled employee for months/years I would rather concentrate of developing a more sophisticated system that could be run by less skilled people.
In my area (central FL), which should be considerably cheaper compared to DC, employers are already advertising $2.5K sign up bonuses for new employees. I have no idea how $18/h works in DC, but you may run out of luck with that one soon.
I am also confused how someone didn't achieved more than $18/h after 5 years in a shop?! Maybe he's not so ambitious or willing to learn as you would like to believe?
When I need help, I start with $15/h just for the one week test. If he's not late and not skipping workdays and capable of anything else besides raw physical help, it is $20/h, and for skilled ones I better not talk further about it...
8/12/21 #25: Training an CNC operator hybrid ...
Website: http://www.bhdavis.net
Before I sold the business and retired I had a rather unconventional structure for my curved moulding business. There were 3 primary people including myself and we all could run the CNC. I did the drawing and file creation end of things and would occasionally be able to leave the office and make a moulding or two. My two employees would each take a project from start to finish, including running it through the CNC. This system worked great in the small shop arena and we produced high per person numbers with an above average profit margin.
If I had grown the business larger, say 2 or 3 more people making mouldings, I always felt this system would not have broken down. Just too many fingers messing around with the CNC.
It sounds like your situation is not that far off from mine. I'd teach your fellow to run the CNC while keeping him at his same pay scale. Once he becomes more capable on the machine, and hence more valuable, you'll raise his pay accordingly. You'll know when the time comes what that will be worth to you while being fair to him in your region.
BH Davis
8/12/21 #26: Training an CNC operator hybrid ...
Thanks everyone for all of the posts. I appreciate the insight.
Cheers,
Ben
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