Ok so a little background about myself. I'm 28 years old right now. Since I was 15 I have been doing carpentry and woodworking.I got started as a teenage hobbiest making furniture and evolved into doing it professionally. I have worked in small custom cabinet shops, work for general contractors. I have experience in pretty much all phases of residential construction from laying a block foundation, rough framing, siding, to custom kitchen cabinetry and building the furiture that goes in the house. Basically I am a jack of all trades. I might not be the fastest at any particular trade but I understand the processes in all. Right now I am working in a stone siding manufacturing shop, not what I like but the money is good. Lots of hours (60+/week) but no benefits and very hard labor.

My dream is to start my own business. I am dead set on it, but I want to take my time and do it right. My idea is to be a design/build general contractor, making marketing directly to home owners as a complete solution for their project. I want to take on projects such as additions, garages, kitchen/bath/etc remodels, and custom cabinetry/builtins. My main emphasis is on being custom. Has anyone else ran a similar business?

My main question is the following:
I don't seem to see a lot of cabinemakers that are also general contractors? Has anyone known or is a remodeling general contractor that also has their own shop for custom cabinetry/ millwork? I want to deal strictly with homeowners and not other contractors or designers. I feel being able to be a one stop shop will make it easier to market to homeowners. Plus I don't really have many contacts and will have to spend significantly on advertising.

My idea is to start out small, outsourcing and subcontracting in the start when I don't have all the equipment to make certain things such as cabinet doors, carved molding, etc. But eventually I want to be able to make those inhouse with shapers and a small cnc. My focus is high end custom not production volume. Ofcourse I will always have to subcontract certain things like plumbing, electric, etc.

I figure I am 2-5 years out savings wise from starting this idea. I am slowly accumulating the tools I don't have yet.

A general contractor makes their money on the phone. You can't do that and be able to make cabinets. Custom cabinets is a term often used to market something that every cabinet shop can now does. A custom cabinet off a cnc router is now as simple as changing a few numbers in the software. No interruptions like it used to be. Every shop now markets them selves as the best and that they provide the best service. I mean EVERY SHOP! You will be lucky to get by with less than 60 hour weeks in a small business. You get to work in the shop all day, and then meet your next boss after dinner.

One job at a time, do that better than the last one, then repeat that. Remember everyone thinks they can own a better restaurant yet 80% of individuals fail in their first attempts. From what I have seen Cabinet shop Owners are pretty much the same. pay your dues, do the boot camp, move forward on good terms. Allways...

Rich has hit another important point in doing residential work in that a lot of your typical face to face, design, revision, time with the average residential customer is in the evenings when they are off work, weekends, and so on. There are really nice exceptions to that rule like a job with a smart husband who stays out of the process and a reasonable wife/stay at home that makes the decisions. Those were by far our very best middle/upper class scenarios where you basically had answer to any questions/design changes in minutes. That or projects for very wealthy that either dont work, work from home, or have architects/designers/staff but thats not in your design/build model. You would be looking for customers that have faith in you to handle it all.

Very much of it is location dependent. Even beyond starting out, ground up work, will be somewhat limited depending on your area with regards to licensing/permitting and so on but your post states remodeling so that takes a tiny bit of the edge off but its still an issue.

Like I mentioned, pretty much 35 years at it and it was fun, and pleasing people/blowing minds/making people happy needs to be your first personal motivation followed by very sound business practice and not allowing yourself to get attached to a project and wind up working for $10 an hour in the end. Like rich said, your days will be long. 60 hours would be very light in my opinion and you'd better make sure you are fully billing at your rate for every single hour you and your crew are working without fuzzy math. I would imagine when you start to boil those numbers down your potential client will need to be wealthier and wealthier, your demand will need to be prime, and your potential customer base will narrow drastically.

HONESTLY
, i prefer woodworking over site carpentry but The main reasons I wanted a business model like this is..

- I don't see many small custom cabinet/millwork shops in my area and feel it would be hard to make a living doing just that.

- I don't have very many contacts and honestly feel it would be tough getting work solely from design professionals.

- I feel it's easier to market to the end customers when your starting with no contacts or referrals like me.

I understand the work involved in starting this kind of business and it's what I want. I am single, no kids, very little family. My career is basically my focus.

I know what I want I am just in the planning stages. I pretty much have a whole business system worked out including an estimation system, contracts and templates for everything. It's far from perfect tho and my main issue is the most important, how to get sales and what my focus should be on.

No wife would be a critical mistake. A wife with a good salary and benefits can get you through the first couple of years. Having no contacts or referrals will also be a stumbling block. When you are dealing with a family you have never met, and you ask them for a substantial down payment, then need more than just your word that your product is good and that you will deliver on time. Marketing for a small one man shop has to be directed in selling yourself, not your work. Just your word is a poor way to gain their confidence since everyone has heard stories of contractors walking away with the downpayment.

Its definitely possible. Dont let the comments of those of us who've done it dissuade you. But it is hard, and I dont just mean hard work, I mean its hard to pull off even with the best of effort. As Ive mentioned, to me at least, a LOT of it is location dependent relating to what kind of clientele is in your area, what access to materials, what are the legal/licensing issues, and so on. Those things that are beyond your control play a huge part in how hard it will be to be successful. And dont get hell bent on the doing it all thing. Sub out/farm out and tack on markups to those trades and your getting work done while your doing other stuff and making a bit of profit on top.

"- I don't see many small custom cabinet/millwork shops in my area and feel it would be hard to make a living doing just that."

This is something where you need to ask why? Why arent there cabinet shops in your area? Its more than likely the area/region simply wont support one rather than there isnt one there to support. In our area there are less and less shops simply because the home centers and commercial/factory cabinetry has priced very small shops out of the market with residential cabinetry and the infrequent/sporadic demand is not enough to sustain shops.

"- I don't have very many contacts and honestly feel it would be tough getting work solely from design professionals."

I dont doubt in any area you get out there and start blowing peoples minds you will develop work quickly merely by word of mouth which is your best advertisement ever. We never spent a penny on advertising and never would because you wind up spending so much time with tire kickers, people getting multiple bids, and so on. Bidding/estimating becomes a massive time suck. Word of mouth your getting customers who are ready to go and more than likely are ready to proceed as soon as you are.

- I feel it's easier to market to the end customers when your starting with no contacts or referrals like me.

I understand the work involved in starting this kind of business and it's what I want. I am single, no kids, very little family. My career is basically my focus.

" my main issue is the most important, how to get sales and what my focus should be on"

What your focus is on would be the key in my opinion. It sounds like it would most likely be small general remodeling to start and hopefully you get to weave in some cabinetmaking/built-ins etc. to move you in that direction and away from insulation, drywall, and so on. You just have to see where your area will take you.

Rich's point regarding a wife with income and insurance is the norm for many. The saying in my world has always been "whats behind every successful woodworker? A wife with a good job and benefits". This was my point about fuzzy math. A wife who covers the bills for a woodworkers losing career venture is anything but an example of a successful woodworker. Its a luxury I never had. From day one you need to be ready to bill for every second of time your in the business. From estimating through pickup material, doing the work, going to the bank making deposits, insurance, right on down the line.

Unfortunately when you start to look at all of those items honestly without fuzzy math it becomes clearer that its a very difficult path unless your willing to accept that on paper you will be working for very low pay.

It is my opinion, after watching the industry for over 50 years, that the local custom 'cabinet maker' is nearly done. At one time there was a local chairmaker, but they are mostly gone now for decades in most places. The Chinese will undercut you and outperform you. They will get the bulk of the work. The local kid that doesn't know how to price, service or finish will get the schlocky owners/contractors that just want to save money. Do you really want a reputation for being cheap?
While there will be a market for the top tier people, you will need a lifetime to break into that class. Look thru those old Arch Digests you are using to prop up the corner of the couch, and you will some pretty high end kitchens. I don't mean to insult you with the Arch Dig remark, but most people never see the woodwork in those types of installations.
So....what to do? Find a niche and exploit it. French 18th century reproductions, Teak Garden Furniture, accurate scale model airplane airframes, Architectural models, conference tables, repro watercraft, ..... and more.

You still have a brain, put it to use and think about busting up units of Melamine for 30 -40 years. Oh boy, what fun! (sarcasm). Now think about setting some heart pine sawtooth shelf supports in a pair of 10' tall Italian style display cabinets.

Which would you rather do?

I typed out a big long response, and then deleted it.

Basically this. Self employment is really fricking hard. It is a constant challenge to keep the ship afloat. Be smart, be willing to grind, and you'll survive. If you're fortunate, and things align, you'll also do well.

You're going to screw up, we all have.

To parrot other's comments. 60 hours a week is part time.

I would also consider in the long term what do you rather be? A single/small shop operator. Or a large size shop. The economics are very different. It's relatively easy to cover your own expenses/pay and have some left over at the end of the year. A full on business with 6 to 7 or more employees is a machine and you need to keep feeding it. Your role will be far less hands on and more about people skills, financial management, and etc.

One more thing I would add is that the first 5 years is investment, every job and relationship you build may come back 5 years later. In the beginning we put a lot money into advertising, and searching campaigns, and etc and wondered why weren't we getting the leads expected.In the end I think the best payback was the referrals I got from the early customers, so the expectations weren't correct. But definitely do the social media. It's free and basically the most effective for a new start.

Thanks
SL

This is an interesting one that I would hope gets some traction...

"It's relatively easy to cover your own expenses/pay and have some left over at the end of the year. A full on business with 6 to 7 or more employees is a machine and you need to keep feeding it. Your role will be far less hands on and more about people skills, financial management, and etc."

This seems to be completely opposite of what I have found personally and always read. Its extremely difficult if not impossible to generate and process enough work on the open market as a one man shop to legitimately cover the expenses of being in business... Leo? A full shop, insurance, taxes, material and operating overhead, I honestly dont see how one person could ever cover it all and draw a reasonable salary (50-70K a year which would cover health insurance). Its simply not possible to process 200-300K a year through a shop as one man to pull 50-70 out.

"One more thing I would add is that the first 5 years is investment, every job and relationship you build may come back 5 years later. In the beginning we put a lot money into advertising, and searching campaigns, and etc and wondered why weren't we getting the leads expected.In the end I think the best payback was the referrals I got from the early customers, so the expectations weren't correct. But definitely do the social media. It's free and basically the most effective for a new start"

Social media marketing is absolutely NOT free. Its an extreme cost burden in time, maintenance/monitoring, and nets you the extreme bottom of the barrel of clientele. The etsy, pinterest, HGTV, budget Black Tail Studio, customers, who are looking for the free ride on the social medial train and are not going to pay 10K for a dinning room table and benches.

Likewise I hope some more people can shed some experiences on this.

Just a little context, I'm 38, running a small shop with my brother for about 7 years now. By no means do I consider having made it. We get by. For those older I definitely look forward to any advice you have.

With regards to the single operator I meant more like a handyman-ish type of business, that can do good work and maybe specialize in furniture making.

On the social media i absolutely agree its not free. I just meant there is no monetary upfront cost like spending money on ads etc. But I would say that it's a useful tool to showcase your work. Something we all need as someone starting from scratch.. The leads still come from your relationships and referrals.

Can I honestly ask what your two man shop is turning in gross revenue annually?

Mark B - My niche mining shop had one man in the shop 40 hrs a week, and me in office/shop/napping for 40 hrs a week. My shop time was about 10 hrs a week, maybe 15 some weeks. Covid split us up, and this arrangement meant neither of us had to wear a mask, mostly.

We sold about $280,000 for the last 3 years. About $140,000 of that was salary, 1/3 of it was materials.

Also, in 35 years as a shop owner, I had from zero to 8 employees, and I never worked over 45 hrs a week.

It is all about finding a niche. Read Paul Downs book "Boos Life" or my "Small Shop Production of Custom Wood Doors". Mine is heavy on how to, Paul's is heavy on management.

By the way, I meant my brother and I own the shop. We currently have 6 to 7 employees. We still work many many hours. In the beginning some months we were in the green some months Not for quite someyimr. I guess the point I was trying to say was not that solo is easier. They are both hard in different ways. (Perhaps you disagree which is ok). But in my opinion once you take on a few employees scaling is a must, anything in between will kill you eventually. Right now we are still in the scaling part and it's been tough. Hopefully we can reach enough scale where we can call ourselves business owners and not employees.

OHHHHHH so now were talking about an 8 man shop (including front of the house).. wow.. what a curve ball... gadzukes.

My biggest concern with focusing solely on cabinetry or furniture or strictly shop work is business being too slow when I first start and being stuck with a 2 year lease (the minimum it seems like for small shop space where Im located) on a shop costing around $1500/month. And $1500/ month is only going to get me a two-car garage sized space in an industrial park! Plus machines are very expensive....Doing jobsite work is still way cheaper. Less than $5k/year for licenses,insurance, compliance bond. I just enjoy shopwork more. I like a shops solitude instead of having annoying customers talking to me and their kids running around screaming while I'm trying to install crown molding on a ladder and having to run outside for every single miter saw cut.

I am the exception; I have stayed small /one man & this is my second time being self-employed. First time 25yrs ago out of design school it was rough - I was underfunded & wife in grad school so bailed; but then worked in ornamental iron in Chicago, AWI in Atlanta and for a well known Jeweler and lastly 10yr stint in contract furniture doing costing, CAD, CNC programming while buying equipment on the side. So yeah I consider myself somewhat of a jack of the finer trades. I also try to do the higher art festivals locally to show my craft - what I want to make & prequalify my clientele.
Develop a 1yr, 5yr, and 10yr business plan and talk about your goals with those that will hear and re-access yearly. I also do hit up the A&D community & when doing commercial I do 50/50 because I consider myself custom FFE spelled w $.$$ the GC that won't do that I won't work with. I don't make the salary numbers the rest are talking but when it's good I reinvest in equipment but again I don't do strictly cabinets and would kill myself if everything becomes routine.
Do you know CAD and a good CPA. When covid hit & the commercial lined up went away I painted the building we own in another bus entity that has lease space (thank you CPA). What kind of start-up cost do you have set aside for your first year hit.
It's a crap shot if you make it, economic timing, client relations, grit, but do listen to the people above.

Best of luck TD

I have posted myself and seen hundreds of wannabe start up posts over the last 20 years. Let me help you out. 1 makes it for every 100 who try. Having skills and equipment is just the start of a lifelong marathon. I have noticed at least in my area over the last 5 years it has gotten tougher with a lot more good competition even for small jobs.
Do yourself a favor and start doing what you can carpentry wise now. If you make it at entry level take gradual steps up. Let your jobs buy the tools. Good luck and your welcome.

I'm curious how many of the "I want to start a cabinet shop" posters make it, and what the attrition rate is. Also timelines.

I lasted 8 years and was totally burnt out. Luckily I was offered a corporate woodworking job and closed the shop down. I still have nightmares after closing down 24 years ago. Most all the nightmares are about lack of work or just too much work.

Everyone is different.

Your results will be different from ours. For me I got my ass kicked for 20 years and now, knock on wood, its going well. Mainly because I got out of finishing and into commercial work.

But others have made it big in residential so that was just my path.

This stuff is hard but it's not rocket science hard.

I have lately wondered what would happen if Elon Musk focused on cabinetry. I think we would all go out of business is someone like him applied himself to the task of cabinet making.

So maybe you are the next Elon and will smash it out of the park.

Just dive in and do it because honestly no matter what we tell you, your success will be determined by your efforts and nothing else.

Been in business 20 years.
Do a million in revenue with me, one helper and wife doing taxes and insurance. 40-50% profit margin (including salary in that).
I have found 98% of the American workforce to be a drag on production not an asset, which is why I raised my one helper. Was always a drain on productivity and profit no matter between 2-10 employees. Stay small, work smart, stay within your box, master design and finishing, answer emails, texts and calls within the hour, cut out any and all fat from every production technique, sale and delivery, never install, keep your word especially on delivery even when it hurts, charge a healthy price, do not go into debt, keep overhead low, cabinetry works for most because the dollar figure is wrapped up in the mortgage loan and they can stomach the cost it takes to make a real living because they are just looking at the monthly payment and too excited about the dream house to care, do great work but learn what the normal person and GC sees and cares about and not your normal woodworker and adjust accordingly, find a network of contractors that feed you work and fight to get on your schedule because you make their life easier and help sell their product. It’s not rocket science but it is hard as hell- but so is working in the average American business that gives you crap pay, no respect and treats you like a replaceable commodity. I’ll take the long hours, the freedom, the hard earned respect and the much bigger paycheck writing my own life story/destiny.

Chris - There is a lot of good information in this thread.

Quicktrim, funny you should mention Musk. I was actually thinking about just that the other day. Guys like him don't care about money. If they did, they would've packed up shop a long time ago when they had a few hundred lifetimes worth of capital to do whatever they wanted for the rest of their lives.
What guys like him care about, is winning.
They are winners to their core.
Losing is not even a probable concept to them.
The trades are mostly full of wash outs and losers. Me included. High school drop outs, child support payments to three different baby mommas, substance dependence/abuse, poor life management in general in almost every facet, and often times very questionable morals. The trailer parks are full of rusty vehicles, malnourished children and hammer swingers.
That doesn't mean the trades doesn't have some really smart, virtuous, and outright good people in it, but I feel like we get a lot of the losers.

Musk doesn't work 40 hours a week either.

ANON,
Pulling 1mil gross with a helper and a wife on staff is an extremely impressive feat. I can conjur up the notions but they would all just be speculation.

Very impressive to say the least especially if your helper you raised is also in the family. Doesnt mean you dont have to pay them but its pretty handy. Ive long thought I should have been like the Amish and bred my own workforce (provided I could retain them).

ANON
What are you producing that you can bill 4000 per day? I could never come close to that rate in the residential cabinetry I do.

I couldnt come close to it with 3 guys a delivery guy, cnc line, case.camps,, laser bander, contour bander, on and on.... 4k a day with 1.5 guys and a wife on the books is a mind blower.

I'm nowhere near that.

Residential cabinetry. Most homes 700k-1.2. A couple multi million dollar homes a year.

Conventional tablesaw. 5k edgebander. Rigid slider mitersaw. You get the idea. And you all are going to read that and think I build crap. We aren’t the ultra high end of the big city but we are considered the high end within a 150 square miles. We choose our client, not the other way around.

The trick is to have a system. The right system. Sell and design to fit the system. Stay within it. Pass on unprofitable out of system work.

We outsource 5 piece doors. Build our own slab. 60/40 mix this last year. All boxes, drawers, parts and finishing in house. We don’t install. I site measure and deliver.

Part of this is getting the reputation as being the man, the expert, etc. you spend a lot less time holding hands. You’re the guy with the answers. Saves a ton on the front end. Trust is the biggest profit increaser on the planet.

Most woodworkers have too many sacred cows- dovetails for example.

Anon,

How long did it take you to get to the point where your reputation is now? How was the beginning?

SL

Steve, at about ten years it started to kick in. Definitely 15.
First 5 years probably averaged 80 hours a week and 40-50k. Your hook is your honest, cheap and on time.

Years 5-10 70 hours and 65k. Honest, on time and make an excellent product

Years 10-15 65 hours and 100k. Honest, on time, excellent product and the go to guy.

15-20 55-60 hours and 300-500k. Honest, on time, excellent product and you’re a draw. Clients often select their GC based on you being on their team.

And always communicating timely, politely and thoroughly.

I have spent almost thirty years doing furniture and cabinets. Fifteen to twenty of those were anxious times working long hours, chasing deadlines and scraping by. Last ten or so have been more pleasant with fewer hours and better sleep.
Things I did right:
-Bought good used equipment as I needed and when I could afford them
-Learned how to talk to clients and give them drawings they could understand. I like sitting at the drafting board and like David Sochar I find that pencil drawings are a good way to communicate and idea to a client.
-I delivered better than what the client expected
-I made good connections with a few small contractors and stayed away from medium to large ones who I could never build to their lead times.

What I did wrong:
-I started out with no money
-I delivered better than what the client expected or asked for and could not charge for the extra work
-I put off buying machines that would increase production or quality because I was cheap or not comfortable making payments on a loan or lease
-I took rejection or criticism too personally that really stressed me out
-I didn't stay long enough working for other cabinet shops to properly learn the skills of the trade and running a shop
-I didn't marry a doctor or lawyer etc.

Tom - all so true mirrors my exp.

Anon - good for you I believe your approach is achievable as houses in my metro area are 600k for a starter and many are 2-4 mill or more , the cabinet packages for these homes are regularly 175k or better. One every two months and you are there.

I was a trim outfit for the first 25 years, doing cabs for 3.5 now. Manufacturing is a totally different game than install, which I sort of underestimated.

However at 46 I don't think I could go on installing for 20 more years till retirement, so I decided to do the shop thing. Still doing way to many hours , 65 plus . But I like the ability to be in control of my own income , and usually I am my own biggest problem.

Anon- one question , are you doing your finishing in a both or do you have a flat line setup ? Finishing still haunts me.....

And to all - thanks for the conversation, it's a lonely road sometimes so nice to hear how others have approached it all, makes me feel like there is a brotherhood that I am a part of .

400 sq ft outbuilding I built for it with conventional airless rigs. 4 rolling door racks. 4 saw horses.

There will always be hiccups in finishing. It’s less predictable with many more variables than wood.

Mark B,

Any suggestions or advice on scaling?

My experiences have been somewhat mixed. I can take on more and bigger jobs but some how i find myself working harder and stressing more. It always feels like the additional person doesn't provide the equivalent amount of productivity. On top of that I find culture and team hard to develop. Ie people's personal drama or drama between employees, managing expectations, just dumb issues, and et. My favorite type is when one guy is waiting around doing nothing for an hour and doesn't come to you and when you ask them what's the problem they say oh I'm waiting for the guy to finish part or oh yeah this is broken.

Not to mention finding people who want to work is just getting harder and harder. I know someone who made custom high end wood exterior doors that just closed recently not because they wanted to retire but because they couldn't get enough people. They went from 20+ to 4.

SL

I am the last one to have any sage advice with regards to the issues youve mentioned. I have been in the exact same boat for a long while. Building a good crew is in my opinion paramount. If you have to be out there in every aspect of everything from unloading deliveries, to monitoring when abrasives, fasteners, hardware, are running low, your sunk. The whole lean/kanban thing is great but still a bear without a good crew. I am in a very rural area and access to blood flow that will even show up is very hard at times and the typical scenario is you invest to get someone up to speed and something happens, better job, wife/gf gets a job 50 miles away, buddy gets a job on the pipeline and convinces your guy to chase buckets of gold that dont exist, on and on.

Estimating, drawing, and customer interaction, is a full time position in my world. I dont see how you can be in the shop AND cover that load.

Without a good crew I dont think scaling is possible. Im not doubting his stats but I have zero clue how Anon can fly out a million dollars a year gross with a guy and a half or even two guys. My assumption when he says he made his own means a child that is groomed into the family business. Not being nay sayer but we've all seen those scenarios go three ways to sideways as well so its great its working.

There is a local top shop here that does very good work, good reputation, and the owner has said to me several times that none of it would be possible without his crew. Im sure in many many years in business he has built a crew, and a company where he can reward his crew. That said, Ive been in that shop several times and had foreman/lead people yammering to me about leaving and going elsewhere, going out on their own, whatever. The same employee apathy you here many places. Its like a cancer. I assume a lot of it is hot air because in that shop a lot of them stay.

Scaling in my opinion is difficult. In my rural area its even harder. So people say move the shop.... at what cost? and to what? Higher taxes, city limits where around here cities are now assessing a user fee to all employees drawing a salary in the city, a B&O tax, regulatory agencies breathing down your neck, crime. Is a give and take.

We dont have 600k entry level homes in my area. I completely understand Anon's point about cabinet makers, especially residential, bankrupting themselves overbuilding because they are building cabinetmakers cabinets, not the cabinets that the homeowner would be happy with and not complain about. There is an argument for sure to lower your construction standards to match or slightly exceed the home centers because even the 600k-1.5mil crowd doesnt know any better. They are shopping at Walmart right beside the person trying to survive on 16K a year.

Custom door shop,.. I have no idea how I'd ever make it. People ask for doors periodically. The Pella store here asks us for doors on occasion. I cant make doors wholesale for them to sell. Not a snowballs chance in the hot place. There are some shops in my area that make pretty impressive bespoke furniture and interiors for very high end homes in a rich area south of here. But they are all the "woodworker" types that work for 3 months on a 15K piece of art furniture and just believe you cant look at the hourly breakdown in that world. They live a meager life, doing "art".

If you choose to do both, you should setup separate companies(different names). The GC business subcontracts all of the shop & installation work to the other company.

Ethically, you may think its double dipping. The reality is if we were talking about a GC subcontracting to his own Electrician, you wouldn't consider it a problem.

General Contracting is one business. Carpentry, plumbing, electrical, and cabinet shop work is a different business.

The biggest problem of all is wearing too many hats. You will find yourself spending a ton of time onsite/phone dealing with the other subs, customers, architects, ordering material. Then you've got this workshop sitting there costing you money that needs to be carefully run from the management & fabrication sides.

It's all possible. I have two friends that did it successfully in New England. They needed the shops to do restoration work. The only way it worked was for them to each employ a high skilled experienced guy to run the shop.

Mark B Your last paragraph has your way forward all over it. You know where the market is, they want you to make doors for them, even Pella is calling.
You do not need to wholesale, and you can say so upon first talk. Tell them you will build the door for their client, they can finish, install, etc, and make money where they can. Or you can hire that end of the work.
The great advantage to custom doors is that no one knows what they cost. Internet only obscures price quality issues. You calmly state the price and move along, as if there is nothing to get excited about.
You are so close, you can taste it. Tool up and develop your processes to build, and you will see the shop efficiency pay off quickly.

Many of the cabinetmakers I have met have chosen their profession because it suited their mindset. I know that my stint in an office was a poor fit. If you feel you would be happier and more productive in the controlled environment of a workshop as opposed to site work, I suggest you start planning for that.
Your first years may well be lean but my feeling is that there is already a shortage of skilled trades persons and many of the shops in my city are being run by owners 60 and up. We are going to start dropping out of the field soon one way or another. That means there will be holes to fill and machinery to buy.
Start planning on what kind of shop you want. Kitchens? Look at what it will take to get a cnc and bander. Furniture and millwork can be more machinery intensive along with more skills to learn. I spent three or four years as an employee in a few shops. I highly recommend you do this as a minimum. Get paid to learn and make contacts.

I really appreciate everyones advice. Theres a lot of good stuff in this thread. Not everything said is what I want to hear but I know it is important points to consider.

Starting a cabinet shop (kitchens,builtins) is what Im attracted to the most but its also the scariest to start. Even if I had $20-30k(my goal within the next 2-3 years) saved up (after bare minimum machinery purchases) the cost of rent for a shop, a $1,000/month cnc payment, money for advertising, marketing, gas (for pounding the pavement networking and introducing myself to people trying to get sales.), and my living expenses (which include a new RAM 1500 payment) , will cause that money saved up to dissapear in a hurry.

My working idea after some recent thinking is todo "remodeling & custom carpentry" Basically small residential remodeling with custom carpentry/cabinetry sprinkled in. Which includes general remodeling, kitchens, baths, basements, small addtions, decks , and porches. I will buy (in cash to keep debt down) an enclosed trailer (16-20ft, 8.5ft wide) and fabricate my cabinets in there until I can afford to buy property for a shop or have the revenue for a mortgage.I should be able to put a portable alumium frame cnc in there and a contractor saw and jointer/planer. I feel I can make it work if I store finished cabinets in a climate controlled storage until while waiting for install. I know most of you guys will say this is a crazy idea....probably is.

I am really opposed to renting shop space. Everyone around Delaware wants like $1400/month for a space thats the size of a 2 car garage and they want 2 year minimum lease contracts with some stipulating you have to pay the property taxes!! WTF

I have worked under guys that had cabinet shops. Both started with basic hand tools and nothing more than a skilsaw and router. One of those guys built custom kitchens outside in his friends backyard for 6 months before he rented a house and used its garage as his first "shop". He evetually had a fully outfitted shop and 13ft beam saw (this was the 90s, cncs werent the thing as much as they are now).

Id rather start small. I want to increase my chance of succeeding any way possible. But I also need to be able to complete jobs efficiently and process enough work to make money. I just don't want to wait until life has passed me by to follow my dreams.

You can get a lot of work done outsourcing doors/drawers. Using a combination of outsourcing sheet cutting/banding(full kitchens) to a cnc shop. Smaller buildings can be done with a decent tracksaw setup.

If I were you I would focus as a remodeling GC(no one wants to do it, because it’s harder than new construction) Sub everything except the finish carpentry & decks. You can build 90% of the builtins on site.

You will be in trouble if you plan on starting out like that. I'd guess none of us bought a new truck and new equipment. I drove a 10 year old van, and I worked part time for 15 years to build up my equipment and clientele. You can outsource all you CNC work for a while, and probably a lot of other parts. When you outsource it takes a mistake to loose money. No estimating time for the majority of the work. You measure, call the suppliers, add your mark up, then send out the bid. Fixed profit on every job! Get the cash flow going well and then find a great used machinery dealer.

I am of the opinion that the majority of shops are going to go bankrupt over the next three years. They are far too in debt for what is coming in RE. There will be an entry point at some point for someone who is young and hungry. Machinery and shop space will be had for pennies on the dollar. The truck will be having enough patience to wait and the wisdom and be prepared enough to jump at the correct time. You’ll have low overhead and be able to undercut those who don’t. The trick will be having just enough credibility of references, experience and a small portfolio to sell those first 6-12 months worth of work. Start with a side job or two to be ready.

yea I sorta jumped on the new truck too quick. Its a ram 2022 classic, (the older body style and cheaper trim, work truck basically). My last truck 2013 silverado was decent, had a lot of issues(ujoints, leaking brakes lines, rust, hesitating tranny). Had to walk 2 hours to work a couple of times. When a lady hit me and totaled it, I decided this time around I wanted something reliable that wouldnt have issues. I do my own work on my trucks but time is an issue, I dont want to be under a truck taking things apart when i could be at work making money.

Rich C, I would do side work part (and I have, small basement remodels, etc) but my present job is so physically demanding, manually lifting masonry all day. Its hard to even shower at night when Im doing that 10-12 hours a day. I have to wake up at 4am to get ready to work everyday, and usually get home at 5-6pm. I have pretty much stopped doing sidework or even pursuing it. Plus most my side jobs are small stuff for cheap clients/ friends of friends, not worth the slim money when i can just get overtime at my regular job. I want to work my regular job a few more years, save up and get out. Its a good job I just dont like the work nor could I keep it up when im 50 years old.

I know were getting off on a tangent here but with regards to your mobile shop plan.. We always ran 1/2 or 3/4 ton pickups with trailers, pretty well outfitted on the interior, for the ability to very quickly setup/take-down and move, as well as carrying a pretty hefty slew of materials (i.e. basically a rolling hardware store and tool transport). Not trying to be negative but to have any sort of rolling shop that can double as an interior workshop you are going to be looking at 1 ton trucks and large tandem or even tri-axle box trailers for anything workable. This is mainly because you will not only need the transport side of the equation but you will also need interior workspace/volume and load capacity for it all. Tools, hardware, compressor, etc.. The weight adds up extremely fast trust me. Fasteners and hardware alone are a boat load.

The first thing I would honestly ditch is the plan for a small frame CNC in the package because it will chew up desperately needed floor space and without spending a hefty sum will likely be slow, underpowered, and have issues with bouncing down the interstate and on and off jobsites. Torque-ing a machine like that in a twisting/bouncing trailer in my opinion wont be too conducive to the accuracy and reliability.

As before, anything is possible. Creative staging of materials, some really good suppliers that will allow you J.I.T. ordering on everything, even perhaps a second trailer or small container you drop on-site and have moved from job to job via a local tow service on a roll back are all good options for mobile/alternate work and storage space and you arent paying any rent.

So much will depend on the type and volume of work you get. With all your planning you will be able to start getting out and sewing some seeds while your still working and as you say some side work will get the word out and hopefully give you a bit of an indicator before you pull the pin.

Yea a 1ton truck is not an option. If space becomes an issue I can always switch tools in and out at a storage unit I guess.

I actually saw this collapsable portable 110v 13amp portable cnc online.Does 4x8 sheets.$10k for it. Its probably slow. I would guess it takes about an hour or more todo 1 sheet. (your machine probably does 20 sheets in that time, lol). The benefit is while its working, I can build my face frames , doors or drawers or even make business related phone calls.

The trailer idea is a thought. Not saying Im going with it but money wise I don't have many options.

The problem is accuracy (what s cnc is there for).. i may well be wrong but I cant imagine a torqued and twisted cnc performing in a trailer to any level of accuracy. And yes... sheet panel procesing when you pass 6 minutes a sheet you begin to get extremely aggitated.

You make very valid points.

I dunno, part of it is a pride thing. If im marketing myself as a "custom" remodeler and "custom" cabinet maker I want to know I'm able to build "custom" work. If a customer comes to me asking for a carved panel cabinet door or custom carved molding, I want to know I am up to the task. I don't want to be restricted by my supplier/subcontractor/ who i am outsourcing to's lead times and lumber that won't provide a grain match withmy cabinet cases. I want to know I can handle those jobs, might not be the fastest but I want to have the pride that I am up to the job and not just some "project manager" reselling other people's work. Its not all about money, yes I want to make a good, good, income but doing something I have a passion for is number 1.

I started woodworking as a teenager in my parent's backyard. I worked out of a 10'x10' rotted out shed building furniture, cabinetry mostly. It was a simpler age before I realized "time is money". I built some great projects using little tools. A old cast iron delta contractor saw, an old 8" powermatic jointer (1970's era i bought from my school, replaced the 3 phase motor with an underpowered single with bronze bushings lol), a porter cable lunchbox planer, a bosch fixed base router and table, a festool ts55 and mft3 ( most expensive tool i ever bought), a harbor freight compressor that could spray an hvlp gun on 110v(sometimes I had to break and let it catch up when spraying precat lacquer, less than perfect finish ),and a whole lot of american made quality hand tools. Yea i didnt do it professionally in that small space but I managed to learn enough to get hired at a cabinet shop with no trade school or any education at all.

Sadly I did some time in jail and the only tools I have now are a dewalt combo kit and metabo miter saw and I don't even work in a carpentry related field now.

You can't afford to buy a cheap cnc, or a half ton pickup. Neither one is useful.

This has been a great thread with excellent advice from all sides.
I would suggest getting away from the stone shop ASAP! either go to work in a cabinet shop or a trim carpentry outfit that does the higher end work. Either one will get you back into the place you need to be to start getting leads.
Once you can get some jobs secured just build the cabinets on the job, my local hardwood store sells predrilled bookcase sides, prefinished ply, etc.. Your clients will be totally fine with this method if the end product looked great.
Then as you grow just bite the bullet for a shop, its all part of growing the business.

Head the advice of not buying a cheap CNC and putting it in a trailer. You with spend more time trying to keep it working than getting quality parts off it. Other than the fact it wouldn't really fit and be able to use it??

I was looking at yetismartbench.com

It's a portable cnc, looks very interesting. Yes probably slow as he'll, 1-1.5 hours per sheet but it would take me that long doing it with a trackball and various jigs anyway.

I could always cut all my cabinets, pre finish them flat then glue them up/ assemble them on-site. It would save space in my trailer. Working in a shop previously, I know we always assembled stuff way too early and it would sit taking up space for days , cluttering the shop.

The problem with leaving the stone shop is money. I get 60 hours a week on a regular week, no carpentry/cabinetry job will give me that. The hourly pay would be roughly the same too because most carpentry/ cabinetry jobs I have been trying to get are not impressed by my sporadic resume, I have worked a lot of jobs for short times, I was young and dumb. Then my resume has a jail time gap which has put potential employers off.

Is it realistic to think I can save up enough money for a couple years of living and advertise/market / network my into business cold turkey quitting my full time job? I have family that just bought a house and I can move in rent free with them in exchange for fixing it up. Doing that I can probably save up enough in a couple years to not work for the following couple years, which is when I could start my business. If it fails , I don't loose anything just have to find a job again.

You've got plenty of time to let it soak in. Custom carved moldings or cabinet doors will likely either be few and far between or something that more than likely by the time you model it and your processing time, tooling, it will be more cost effective to outsource it. Dont let your pride stand in the way of your profit margin. Its a common pitfall. I think a lot of people think getting a CNC will allow fruitful creative/artistic work/accents, which it can, but at least in my world those opportunities are extremely rare to the extent they in no way justify the machine (even a small one). Everything you outline can easily be sourced from a good relationship with a local CNC shop with all the software and large machine capacity to get you what you need initially if its not stuff you can site build or your too busy with other work to build the boxes/etc yourself. You dont need to do it all.

Your money and hours at the stone shop definitely seems hard to pass up but my advice would be to keep your feelers out in the field your interested in because you never know. I understand your history affecting you but several hires over my time, including in the shop, were newly released felons who had applied for endless jobs with no chance. My typical routine regardless of who came looking for work was to have them come out and work for a day (paid) as the interview process. It let me get a feel for the fit as well as them for me. You could always see it in their eyes all day that they werent telling you everything out of fear of getting run off by default and at some point before the end of a decent trial day they would muster up to spill the beans. None of that ever bothered me. We all make mistakes and people need a second chance. While they may not have done jail time, you will more than likely run into more people in the construction trade that are social misfits than you will the opposite. Its worth keeping your feelers out while your banking as much as you can at the stone work in the event something juicy pops up.

Someone posted a link to this video years ago. I believe it to be especially relevant in this case.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBi4zroEj1w

And the follow up

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9hIXiM-yrY