Message Thread:
Valuating New Shop Machinery
12/21/22
Website: http://www.parkhillwoodcraft.ca
I've identified 2 machine bottlenecks in my 1.5-man cabinet shop: lack of a wide belt sander and an entry-level edgebander that is a fussy princess and needs upgrading. I am considering leasing a new machine to solve one of the bottlenecks. I am interested in hearing what others' have to say regarding my thinking.
Here's my rationale: I figure machine will cost me about $4 of my hourly shop rate if leased for the next five years. That same machine should save about 25-30 shop hours annually minimum; or in other words, I should be about to work those 30 hours a year and bill them out to make about $2500/year greater profit or ~$12k over the life of the 5 year lease on the machine. Machine is about $21k delivered to my shop, and at the end of the lease there's a $10 buy out for a used machine that's probably now worth about $8k. So: machine costs me $21k to lease over 5 years, will provide a net profit to the company of $12k, and be valued at $8k after the lease. Does that reasoning suggest the machine costs me $9k to own after the lease is up, and after that the machine is making me $2500/year profit?
I'm not trying to talk myself into a lease... I'm a cash guy and have built my business over the past 10 years on cash and used machines. Just looking to somehow solve the shop bottlenecks. Used widebelts are not plentiful, and never again will a buy a used bander!
12/22/22 #2: Valuating New Shop Machinery ...
No comment on the lease but for a very small shop with regards to a bander you may have good luck looking for a well performing used machine that is in current operation that you can buy for cash. We may have gotten lucky but we landed on an older bander that was in-service but being replaced by a top of the line bander that the shop owner said cost more than his house (assuming a small house in a rural area) but it was a 4-5 man shop. We bought the Holzher 1435SE that had been running miles of tape for a song cash and its been a solid champ ever since.
Not saying a new machine is not the way to go but the shop we pulled this machine from had nothing but nightmares from the new machine and getting it on line. The owner mentioned to me a few times after that he regretted ever selling the machine. We dont band daily but the machine will run all day for several days then sit for a bit. Given what I have in the machine it was a no brainer.
12/22/22 #3: Valuating New Shop Machinery ...
Brent,
What do you require of an edge bander? I have a small one just sitting here that you may be interested in. Have you considered finding someone to make your panel parts? You could keep it simple and just let them cut and band 8' rips for you. Or have them process the sides so they can bore also. For a 1.5-man operation, perhaps your time is better spent on the things that make your product unique, or the service side of the design/installation, etc.
But, if you have to do it yourself, a well-taken care of used bander may be the way to go. However, it doesn't seem like a very strong ROI. There are process changes you could do for free at that level that could save you more than 30 hrs per year. (Think Lean) and they're most likely nearly free.
12/22/22 #4: Valuating New Shop Machinery ...
Website: http://www.parkhillwoodcraft.ca
Gary: I need an edgebander to do 95% 0.6mm banding with almost zero after-work - solid and PVC. My current bander has several issues: does not glue the first 1/4" of the strip, doesn't consistently flush trim ends with anything close to an adequate result that works with frameless cabs and furniture, and doesn't consistently flush trim to the panel face. So I'd like to solve all those issues. Right now, I cut every part to be banded +1/2" in length, band, then trim a 1/4" off each edge. I also have to flush trim the banding manually with a very sharp chisel. I'd say I am pretty darn pleased with the net result, just way too much work to get there! I need a bander that does 95% 0.6mm with no post rework, that handles 2mm banding with some post rework, that flush trims to the panel face, and flush trims ends properly. For reference, I am currently running a Casadei K320 bander.
In my mind, I hope so also become more lean in the shop like you've mentioned. Saving 30 hours a year seems easy, but perhaps more difficult than I think. I find that netting 4-5hours per day actually in the shop doing billable work is a good day for me. The other 3hrs is either wasted moving around/within a too-small shop, or taken by overhead tasks (admin, drawing, quoting, cleanup, etc). Hence why I am trying to invest in machinery that will speed me up while I am in the shop... if all that makes sense.
12/22/22 #5: Valuating New Shop Machinery ...
Website: http://www.parkhillwoodcraft.ca
I estimate adding either a capable bander or WB sander would save 2-3% of my annual labor hours.
12/22/22 #6: Valuating New Shop Machinery ...
One mantra of "Lean" is, if it bothers you "fix it"..... thats a long road which never ends, but it sounds like your banding is pretty slow and painful. I will say one thing new machines just work, Imagine just banding panels with no handwork, you could get alot done real fast.
12/22/22 #7: Valuating New Shop Machinery ...
Website: http://www.sogncabinets.com
What's your budget?
I've got a fairly simple bander I bought used I paid too much for but I was in a pinch. It does a reasonably good job. I spent $7k I think on it?
12/23/22 #8: Valuating New Shop Machinery ...
I never checked in the last couple of days , but there was a Brandt, I think it was a 520c , but could be wrong, it was an early 2000’s machine. I have no idea about condition, but the asking price was $5000.
That was an amazing edgebander in its time.
The ad was on Woodweb. If I needed an edgebander I would buy it in a heartbeat. I have owned SCM, Holtzer, Brandt and the Brandt was the best machine by far, grease it and change the cutters and it just never ever broke down.
As for your question about leasing, I would not hesitate to do that if you are sure you have work readily available for the length of the lease. Nothing worse than a lease payment when there is a recession and you don’t have a lot of work.
12/23/22 #9: Valuating New Shop Machinery ...
Website: http://www.parkhillwoodcraft.ca
My budget on a new machine is $20-24k CDN. A used machine, who knows? I am hesitant to buy a used bander honestly, unless I can see it run in-person and see it's results completing all 4 edges of a flat panel door with 1mm tape. While I don't doubt you when you say Brandt was amazing in its time, 2001 was a long time ago, and many many hours. My current bander is a 2006, came from a small shop, and is most definitely worn out.
Re having a lease during a recession: I mean, we can probably all agree a recession is on the horizon if we're not already in one. I don't see our housing market where I am slowing down anytime soon, but that being said, I am only booked until April. However, I have enough capital in the company to cover the lease payments for the duration of the lease. There's simply no way I can forecast market demand within the next year or two, and that's what makes it hard for me to pull the trigger.
12/23/22 #10: Valuating New Shop Machinery ...
Brent,
Ya what you say makes sense. What kind of edgebander do you currently own? Maybe you are better to throw some money at your current bander and tune it up?
The amount you are budgeting for a new one doesn’t allow for much of a bander with the current prices. The other thing is availability, how long will a new bander take to arrive?
12/23/22 #11: Valuating New Shop Machinery ...
Website: http://www.parkhillwoodcraft.ca
All valid points. In my defense, I haven't researched EBs' prices too much, but I need just a small-shop bander, and sub-30k new seems to be about right. I currently have a Casadei K320... as mentioned above, it has so many nuanced issues I'm not sure it's worth investing in. You are right about new bander availability... a new widebelt is available locally if I want to buy it this afternoon.
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