Woodworking Business

You are not logged in. [ Login ] Why log in
(NOTE: Login is not required to post)

Late payers affecting cashflow


Over the past couple of years we have moved over to builders work.
Smaller custom builders doing anything from mid to high end renovation upto 10 apartments.

It makes up about 50-70% of our work now and am experiencing all the classic problems with builders slow payments.

The general practice seems to be. Pay me a deposit because they are behind schedule and want me to push the job out quickly, drag out a progress payment that I am too busy run off my feet finishing the job to chase it up and then when the job is all said and done and the final invoice is in go missing for a while, don't answer the phone ect. until the next job is ready and they are behind schedule then they pay up everything and the cycle starts again. Because our relationship with these builders is in infancy and we are a smaller operation I have always felt I owe em, if we are a bit late with a job (usually because of a flow on effect from there schedule or an unrealistic lead time) I hesitate to invoice quickly in fear of rocking the boat. Now that we have proven ourselves and we have good service, high customer satisfaction rate and all deadlines met I is time to strengthen my stance.

I'm over it, my cashflow is like a yoyo and I can see that the pattern is exposing my company to risk. I need to build up working capital for expansion but I'm forever waiting for overdue payments.

From the start of this year I have set up a payment schedule as follows.
Each builder has personalised terms with some extended due days ect. but the company standard is as follows for builders. Private Clients pay higher upfront (505) because they generally don't have a problem doing so.

30% deposit
40% upon install (or invoice get's sent early if cabinets in factory for a week or 2)
30% upon final completion.
If we are missing a handle or something small I leave a small retainer, maybe $500 or 2% depending on size of job so they have confidence we will come back and finish.

All invoices are 7 days from issue, I have accounting software set up to automatically send a reminder of overdue bill at 3,7 & 14 days and I make a call around the 7-10 day mark.

I am happy for builders to negotiate with me on extended days BEFORE COMMENCEMENT but I wan't to create a system to reduce our late payment days.

This is what I have come up with.....

-For every 3 days an invoice is late paid you lose a day off your next invoices due date. example if you are issued a 7 day invoice and you pay it in 13 your next invoice is 5 days.
-Once you get to 0 you are COD and pay before or on the day that stage is due, eg. install day or final completion day have a cheque ready.
-You can earn payment extensions or gain days back by paying early, i.e 3 days early payment increases your next invoice pay date by 1.
-Once an invoice is x amount of days late we stop works on jobs until a payment is made, No callouts, no supply of joinery for other jobs going on. If they let me know early that they wont meet a deadline or respond to overdue reminders this doesn't necessarily need to happen.

The second option I am considering is to offer a discount for on time payments, instead of reprimanding for bad behaviour I am rewarding good behaviour. Maybe even discount for higher percent payments in each stage. Not sure what amount to offer as discount. I guess some research into the cost of overdue payments on bottom line could help with this.

I'm banking on our responsive service, reasonable pricing and quality product to keep them coming back.

I'm happy to go hardline approach with private clients because they are generally one off and tend to work to a payment system without issue. At the end of the day the builder likes to "be the boss" and puff his chest out and call the shots, happy for him to parade around like a peacock all day, I,ll tell him how good he is but also need to get paid on time.

I've let a few builders go because they were terrible payers, Generally if they are bad with the books, they are bad with scheduling which in turn eats into our profit margin, burning the candle at both ends. Therefore figuring if they aren't happy to conform to a system like this they are bad news.

Sorry for the long post. Interested in seeing if anyone has done something similar or what approach they take to late payments.


3/30/16       #2: Late payers affecting cashflow ...
Charles Member

Many, many years ago, I worked as a purchasing agent for a manufacturing company. Most of my job was procuring raw materials for the end product. A number of my vendors would complain about late payments from our Account Payable department. Try as I might, there was nothing that I could do to persuade the AP folks to pay on time.

However, there was one vendor that was ALWAYS paid on time. Their secret? They offered a 2% discount if they were paid in 10 days. I'm pretty certain that their cost was built into the price of the product that they sold us. The bean counters got to claim that they "saved" our company some money by taking advantage of the discount offered by this vendor. The vendor got paid on time, and was very happy. The other vendors? Well, they waited.

Something to keep in mind: the KISS Principle. Keep It Simple Somehow. Your first approach of punishing the contractor is waaaaay too complex and will probably lead to needless arguments about how many days should be added or subtracted. The amount of your time needed just to administer that system will definitely eat into your profits and cause you grief.

The second system that you proposed still has some extra complexities. Offering extra discounts for higher percentage payments is another excessive bookkeeping task. KISS!

Send invoices per the contract. Give a set discount (the same % for every invoice) if paid within X days. Collect the checks.

And, forget negotiating "special deals" that vary from job to job. Unless there is something extremely different about a particular job, keep your rules consistent.

3/30/16       #3: Late payers affecting cashflow ...
Jim Herron

Been there, done that. Finally a topic I know my way around.
You're allowing yourself to be bitch slapped by someone you've let yourself believe is superior to you. If you have anything to work with, you bring more investment and talent to the game than any "builder" ever will.
YOU have made ALL the investment in infrastructure to be able to provide quick, reliable, and quality service.
I'm sure your vendors and employees are looking for their payments on a prompt and timely basis. For kicks, try slow paying your electric bill.
I work for lots of builders and have for several years. I've also kicked several to the curb in very public fashion.
I'll go to the mat for one that is taking care of business. The ones using me for a ATM and rescue team can suck it.
The types you speak of do nothing but strain your resources- TIME ( THEY are always late releasing the job for production and never have the essential information needed creating more delay), MONEY- they are causing you to pay overtime and rush freight for THEIR delays.
And sweet Jesus, why are these a__holes perpetually broke? Their only overhead is a $@/^&#! PowerStroke and cell phone payment. Sorry almost forgot the annual deer lease and green fees.
Move these people to a tight payment schedule (be prepared for resistance, no one likes getting kicked off the gravy train)- 50% on the front ( you start cutting when they supply all pertinent information- drawings approved, appliance list in hand, ect.) , have the other 40% ready when you deliver- send the invoice prior to loading, and be looking for the other 10% when substantially complete- screw leaving him 500.00 to forget about owning you for a freaking cabinet knob.
Your allowing them to suck resources that could be applied toward serving a customer that can appreciate the investment it takes to produce at a fast, reliable pace.

3/31/16       #4: Late payers affecting cashflow ...

I'm with Jim. 50%down, 40% on delivery, 10% when complete. You can vary this last amount down to 5% if you want. Once I decided that I wasn't a banker, my cash flow became much better. This is your business, not the builders. If they don't like the terms, go find another one who wants service and quality. Remember, the builder only gets to pick 2 out of 3: Price, Quality or Time

3/31/16       #5: Late payers affecting cashflow ...
Pat Gilbert

You are not going to do business with builders without giving credit.

Always file prelims on them.

Do a credit check on them before you sign a contract. I.E. ask other subs (preferably ones who are towards the end of the job, e.g. painters, carpet.) how they pay.

3/31/16       #6: Late payers affecting cashflow ...

I disagree that you won't do business with builders without extending credit.
You won't do business with the shi--y, marginal credit builder's without extending credit.
I do 90% of my work for builders. For an established customer I can and will do 50k job without a draw, but know I can get one when I want it. Newbies fork over the 50% (I don't need it to get rolling-I have inventory) and get on with the rest of the terms. Otherwise go deal with the guys working out of their sister's hatchback and their headaches.
Again I ask- where is the builder's funding? What's he bringing to the table?
I completely respect a legitimate builder- he's managing the people and the money, both of which I don't need on my plate.

3/31/16       #7: Late payers affecting cashflow ...

Thankyou. Much great advice.

Maybe it's different in different locations but I tend to agree with Pat, It is very hard to get a relationship off the ground with these builders if I don't offer credit. That's why I negotiate per builder, the fresh startups will pay the upfront 50% but the old school guys with the good jobs won't do it.

Jim and Tom. Was there a point in time that you just stopped the mucking around and insisted on your payment terms? What happened with your builders? Did some leave?

These builders are good and the type of work is allowing us to grow and increase turnover and profit so hesitant to go hardline and lose the momentum.

Has anyone ever gone tools down or stopped supply if a bill wasn't paid and what was the effect on the relationship and the cashflow?


3/31/16       #8: Late payers affecting cashflow ...

Are you selling financing or quality, turnaround, and service?
Let's answer the question before we go further- Where's the builder's money? Where's the banks money? Where's the owners money?
More importantly- where's your money? Is it in your bank account, or tied up in Mr. Builders 2016 King Ranch, his wife's Navigator, their lake house, their other toys, etc?
Does he operate off interim financing with a bank? What purpose does the interim financing serve?
I'll just about guarantee your slowest payer is the one always needing things done in the fastest time frame.
Was there a point in time that you just stopped the mucking around and insisted on your payment terms? Yes, That time came when I did a job for "the biggest builder in the area" on a rush deal, and working my crew double shifts for two weeks getting it completed, only to drag back to my shop about 8pm to watch his tricked out King Ranch fly by towing a new fifth wheel headed to Colorado for two weeks. I phoned him and he said he'd write me a check when he got back in town, and informed me I was really putting a drag on his vacation by calling.
I got my $32,000.00 check 6 weeks later after threatening him with bodily injury, and being off my medications enough to mean it.
What happened with your builders? Did some leave? I've never lost one due to a deposit, I have refused to work for some due to incompetence or worse slow pay. The above referenced builder has called me a few times over the years to do work for him but I've declined.
Answer the above question, then decide if you like status quo or better cash flow and paying YOUR bills on time.
BTW- offering 2% discount will get you a late payer that also takes a 2% discount (he will now feel entitled to it-he is after all your biggest and best customer)
Are you going to call someone up and argue with them over shorting their late payment 2% and expect no friction? Are you actually envisioning them writing you a check for the 2 percent and bringing it by with their apologies?
When I worked in retail lumber, we ALWAYS took the discounts AND paid late to our suppliers stupid enough to offer it.
Take your worst one and get him on your terms. Best case he will balk, and worst case leave.
Are you better off being ridden like a jackass or finding another one to replace him? Will he stay gone? Can he do better? I make a real effort to make sure my builders can't do better, generally speaking. I'm sure they can find someone cheaper, but can he do it as fast? Can they get his customers satisfied enough to praise their work in a group email/text or in referral to his next customer?
I'll do about whatever it takes to make that happen, but the real reason I do it is for the paycheck.

3/31/16       #9: Late payers affecting cashflow ...
rich c.

I think your "punishment" section is too complicated and will be ignored. I prefer the incentive plan as well. It would never enter my mind to take the discount and pay late. I don't do business like that!

3/31/16       #10: Late payers affecting cashflow ...

Website: http://Www.Tomasi-design.com

What tomB sais. State on your proposals that late payments after 30 days incur interest of "X" (usually 5-10%) or 60-120% annually.

3/31/16       #11: Late payers affecting cashflow ...

We solved that problem two ways.
1. Clients that get a "B" or lower rating get fired. Let my competition bankroll their poor business practices.

2. Payment terms are 50% Down 40% at or before delivery, balance on completion with all change orders due immediately.

4/1/16       #12: Late payers affecting cashflow ...

We tried the 2% fast pay discount a long time ago. Most took the discount regardless of when they paid.
If you get too much of your work from one builder you are at a real disadvantage in dealing with them.
Large general contractors are even worse!

4/1/16       #13: Late payers affecting cashflow ...
Pinetree Furniture Makers  Member

I knew one guy that did kitchen for designers an G.C. and what he did was 50,30,15,5. He always had the boxes ready before the doors an drawers so he would go an install the boxes,kicks an trim an have 80% of his money an then 15 on the doors an drawers. The last 20% was always the hardest to get so after he put the boxes in the countertops would be install before he would put the doors on so if they wanted to be slow with that 15% they would have to deal with the housewife saying to the designer or G.C when it going to be done. If the owners would call him he would just say I'm just waiting for your designer or GC to pay the 15% and I on my way over. This guy always got paid . Lol.

4/2/16       #14: Late payers affecting cashflow ...

Well, so much for my 2% Net 10 idea. :-(

It isn't going to work if the builders don't play by the rules. You only get the discount if you pay in 10 days. What worked in our manufacturing scenario years ago obviously isn't going to work here.

When our business was doing more custom projects, we had a 50-40-10 rule. 50% deposit before the project started. 40% check before the product was even loaded at our facility for delivery. 10% after "substantial completion" of the project. Little items like a knob or something else did not hold up the 10%. Of course we worked to prevent any minor items to prevent return trips to the jobsite. Those trips cost us money/profit.

We no longer deal with these type of projects on a routine basis, but, when we do, we pull out the 50-40-10 rule.

4/2/16       #15: Late payers affecting cashflow ...

Thanks again for great advice. The more I read the more I feel the custom aspect warrants the 50/40/10 rule. We get lumped in with all the other trades pricing program but many of those trades (electrician, plumber ect) aren't building and supplying a custom item that would be near worthless if it wasn't purchased for that particular house. Cabinet makers and joiners need to be treated differently. + our machinery outlays ect ect.

Also the "practical completion" is a great way to get your last payment with a small outstanding item. I'll be writing that into the terms and conditions.

The thing I don't understand about the early payment discount is this.

If I give someone a price for $100 dollars with a 7 day invoice and write on the invoice "pay $99 if you pay within 2 days", is the invoice amount not clearly $100?

I can't believe someone would have no shame in paying the lesser amount AND late.......although these guys never cease to amaze.

P.s Jim you were spot on about my slowest payer needing everything the quickest. Always telling me the job was ready months before we can actually start on it, throwing my scheduling out then working overtime to get it done, being late to deliver and getting a hard time for it. I think he'll be the first one to get kicked off the gravy train.

4/2/16       #16: Late payers affecting cashflow ...

You don't have to give them all the boot at once.
Take that slow paying parasite first and get him in line. If he walks, no huge loss.
I can find ALL those contractors that I want. There always into somebody for some money and always on the lookout for that next free ride.
Put a big sign out front-

Custom Cabinets-NO Money Down!

0%- Pay When YOU Want!
First get squared up with everything that he owes you, then his very next project, he gets introduced to the 50/40/10 plan. No 50%, see the door. No 40% no delivery. No 10% on completion, I'll gladly write off 10% as the price to pay to loose this idiot. If there's no trust that you'll install a $1.89 pull, there's nothing there anyway, move on.
You've been paying more than 10% in overtime on his stuff.
Get him straightened out, then fix the next one.

4/4/16       #17: Late payers affecting cashflow ...

The point came when I was sick of worrying if I was going to make payroll, loan payments, etc... I worked the billing/invoicing before everything else. You want me to build your stuff? Send a check for 50% down. I also let all my builders know when they call when they can expect to get on the schedule (at least 4-6 weeks.) Then they start whining about needing it sooner, that's fine but: You now get to write another check for 10% quick turn around on top of the bid price. And I collect that right up front.

As others have said, your worst paying builder is the one causing most of your scheduling problems. Roll out these terms to them first. In writing. Follow them to a T. Don't accept an excuse. No $ = no cabinets.

4/4/16       #18: Late payers affecting cashflow ...
Pat Gilbert

Are you guys talking about commercial or residential?

I'm skeptical that you can do that with commercial.

4/4/16       #19: Late payers affecting cashflow ...
Jim Herron

Not to beat a dead horse but the terms are the terms.
Of course the attitude must be reconciled against the bank account.

4/4/16       #20: Late payers affecting cashflow ...
Pinetree Furniture Makers  Member

I agree Pat , that will not work in commercial but one thing I have found that as Tom said the worst G.C is the one that needs it right away. If they can't plan out a schedule how do you think they do running their business.I had one guy come to us on a Monday and said I need it by Thursday. I asked him how long have you known that you needed this cabinetry and mill work and he said 6 months.Plus I love those guy like that that say oh it's not a hard job only a couple cabinets here and there, service desk with a little curve to it ,etc. These are the guys we have learned to stay away from.

4/4/16       #21: Late payers affecting cashflow ...
Pat Gilbert

One thing I have learned the hard way is that you need to interview the sup(not the contractor), and weigh him to determine the risk of dealing with him.

4/19/16       #22: Late payers affecting cashflow ...

Reading of the stresses some of you experience with collecting reminds me of many sleepless nights in my early years.

I bust my a** for my customers! I always have. I refuse to succumb to the games some play. I need my money to operate and provide the best quality and service possible.

Because I have worked my way up through the ranks and have a great reputation, thank th Lord, I am finally a position to work on my own terms.

My terms are simple and they are non negotiable.
50% Deposit
40% On inspection in my shop.
10% Pay directly to installer (subcontractor) which is his fee anyway.

Thank you for your business.! Everyone is happy. And, if there is a problem after or during the installation, we jump right on it!!! And, the word has gotten around which is great for me.

I can remember back in the day, when we had a problem, It was not that we did not want to fix it, or go back, Its that we did not have any money to go back because we haven't been paid.

Growing Pains!

Good luck whatever you do friend

4/21/16       #23: Late payers affecting cashflow ...
David Waldmann  Member

Website: vermonthardwoods.com

First off, we require all first time orders to be COD. Depending on the job type, a deposit may be required as well.

Most contractors stay on a 50% deposit, 50% on delivery term (we don't do installation).

Terms are only granted after checking references, including their bank if possible, and a good existing relationship. We have one contractor that I would never even consider giving terms, because he constantly has scheduling issues, delayed deposits, and delayed deliveries due to lack of funds to pay COD. In fact our last delivery was delayed about a week, and then his check bounced! If I believe him (and I do) it turns out it was because he had an auto pay that came in. The fact that he didn't know it was coming is just indicative of how unorganized he is and why I would not grant him terms.

If you are doing 50/40/10 (a concept I wholly agree with for most of the types or businesses posting on here), then offering a 2% discount is probably not relevant, as it's just 2% of the 10% and not much of an incentive.

At one point we had a vendor that offered 20% - 30 days, Net 31. Obviously their prices reflected that. And while you HAVE to account for it in that extreme case, any discount offered has to be realistically analyzed - what is the benefit to you? What is the cost? Is it worth it? For instance, since we take credit cards, and generally are requiring a 50% deposit, we offer a 1% discount if they choose to pay in full by check. It costs us 2.0-2.3% to take credit cards, but I won't offer 2%, because quite a few people would pay by check anyways.

After many years of struggling to collect, I have found that the biggest help is consistency and records. Once a customer finds out that you are going to call them every time they are 15 days over, and follow up on whatever they tell you, they tend to try and avoid that by paying on time. I review accounts and make calls every Tuesday (we tend to get most checks on Monday).

We have two sides to our business, and on one of those we tend to get many small orders (typically under $500), and have found that accepting credit cards virtually eliminates a collection problem, since most of those customers take that option.

On the other side, we have a few larger customers that tend to have trouble paying because they just don't like taking the time to do paperwork. However, they have the money, and have agreed to let us take the money out of their account via ACH.

  • Post a Response to this thread
  • Notify me of responses to this thread
  • Subscribe to email updates on this Forum
  • To receive email notification of additions to this forum thread,
    enter your name and email address, and then click the
    "Keep Me Posted" button below.

    Please Note: If you have posted a message or response,
    do not submit this request ... you are already signed up
    to receive notification!

    Your Name:
    E-Mail Address:
    Enter the correct numbers into the field below:

    Date of your Birth:

    Return to top of page

    Buy & Sell Exchanges | Forums | Galleries | Site Map

    FORUM GUIDELINES: Please review the guidelines below before posting at WOODWEB's Interactive Message Boards (return to top)

  • WOODWEB is a professional industrial woodworking site. Hobbyist and homeowner woodworking questions are inappropriate.
  • Messages should be kept reasonably short and on topic, relating to the focus of the forum. Responses should relate to the original question.
  • A valid email return address must be included with each message.
  • Advertising is inappropriate. The only exceptions are the Classified Ads Exchange, Machinery Exchange, Lumber Exchange, and Job Opportunities and Services Exchange. When posting listings in these areas, review the posting instructions carefully.
  • Subject lines may be edited for length and clarity.
  • "Cross posting" is not permitted. Choose the best forum for your question, and post your question at one forum only.
  • Messages requesting private responses will be removed - Forums are designed to provide information and assistance for all of our visitors. Private response requests are appropriate at WOODWEB's Exchanges and Job Opportunities and Services.
  • Messages that accuse businesses or individuals of alleged negative actions or behavior are inappropriate since WOODWEB is unable to verify or substantiate the claims.
  • Posts with the intent of soliciting answers to surveys are not appropriate. Contact WOODWEB for more information on initiating a survey.
  • Excessive forum participation by an individual upsets the balance of a healthy forum atmosphere. Individuals who excessively post responses containing marginal content will be considered repeat forum abusers.
  • Responses that initiate or support inappropriate and off-topic discussion of general politics detract from the professional woodworking focus of WOODWEB, and will be removed.
  • Participants are encouraged to use their real name when posting. Intentionally using another persons name is prohibited, and posts of this nature will be removed at WOODWEB's discretion.
  • Comments, questions, or criticisms regarding Forum policies should be directed to WOODWEB's Systems Administrator
    (return to top).

    Carefully review your message before clicking on the "Send Message" button - you will not be able to revise the message once it has been sent.

    You will be notified of responses to the message(s) you posted via email. Be sure to enter your email address correctly.

    WOODWEB's forums are a highly regarded resource for professional woodworkers. Messages and responses that are crafted in a professional and civil manner strengthen this resource. Messages that do not reflect a professional tone reduce the value of our forums.

    Messages are inappropriate when their content: is deemed libelous in nature or is based on rumor, fails to meet basic standards of decorum, contains blatant advertising or inappropriate emphasis on self promotion (return to top).

    Libel:   Posts which defame an individual or organization, or employ a tone which can be viewed as malicious in nature. Words, pictures, or cartoons which expose a person or organization to public hatred, shame, disgrace, or ridicule, or induce an ill opinion of a person or organization, are libelous.

    Improper Decorum:   Posts which are profane, inciting, disrespectful or uncivil in tone, or maliciously worded. This also includes the venting of unsubstantiated opinions. Such messages do little to illuminate a given topic, and often have the opposite effect. Constructive criticism is acceptable (return to top).

    Advertising:   The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not an advertising venue. Companies participating in a Forum discussion should provide specific answers to posted questions. WOODWEB suggests that businesses include an appropriately crafted signature in order to identify their company. A well meaning post that seems to be on-topic but contains a product reference may do your business more harm than good in the Forum environment. Forum users may perceive your references to specific products as unsolicited advertising (spam) and consciously avoid your web site or services. A well-crafted signature is an appropriate way to advertise your services that will not offend potential customers. Signatures should be limited to 4-6 lines, and may contain information that identifies the type of business you're in, your URL and email address (return to top).

    Repeated Forum Abuse: Forum participants who repeatedly fail to follow WOODWEB's Forum Guidelines may encounter difficulty when attempting to post messages.

    There are often situations when the original message asks for opinions: "What is the best widget for my type of shop?". To a certain extent, the person posting the message is responsible for including specific questions within the message. An open ended question (like the one above) invites responses that may read as sales pitches. WOODWEB suggests that companies responding to such a question provide detailed and substantive replies rather than responses that read as a one-sided product promotion. It has been WOODWEB's experience that substantive responses are held in higher regard by our readers (return to top).

    The staff of WOODWEB assume no responsibility for the accuracy, content, or outcome of any posting transmitted at WOODWEB's Message Boards. Participants should undertake the use of machinery, materials and methods discussed at WOODWEB's Message Boards after considerate evaluation, and at their own risk. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages it deems inappropriate. (return to top)

  • Forum Posting Help
    Your Name The name you enter in this field will be the name that appears with your post or response (return to form).
    Your Website Personal or business website links must point to the author's website. Inappropriate links will be removed without notice, and at WOODWEB's sole discretion. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    E-Mail Address Your e-mail address will not be publicly viewable. Forum participants will be able to contact you using a contact link (included with your post) that is substituted for your actual address. You must include a valid email address in this field. (return to form)
    Subject Subject may be edited for length and clarity. Subject lines should provide an indication of the content of your post. (return to form)
    Thread Related Link and Image Guidelines Thread Related Links posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should point to locations that provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related Link that directs visitors to an area with inappropriate content will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    Thread Related File Uploads Thread Related Files posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. Video Files: acceptable video formats are: .MOV .AVI .WMV .MPEG .MPG .MP4 (Image Upload Tips)   If you encounter any difficulty when uploading video files, E-mail WOODWEB for assistance. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related File that contains inappropriate content will be removed, and uploaded files that are not directly related to the message thread will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links, files, or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)