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Why is there something like unemployment

9/12/21       
Willem Martins  Member

Website: sandhillscustom.com

We now pay cabinet installers $800 a day. I can train just about anyone out of highschool, with two hands and average muscle to install cabinets in a few months.

No one is interested, can't find anyone to do the work, so we have to cut volume and install ourselves.

Hard to understand.

9/12/21       #2: Why is there something like unemplo ...
TonyF

Willem Martins:

$800 a day sounds like good money for central NC; unless it is a 24 hour day :^). Is this a 1099 position whereby the installer has to have their own truck, tools, license, insurance, etc.? Is this piecework based on your labor estimates? Does this require the installer to have a contractor's license, and so be their own business, or is this an employee position, with or without benefits?

If I were younger, and it wasn't a 4 hour commute each way, I'd come work for you. Perhaps when all of the current subsidies go away, it will be easier to find employees/subcontractors.

Unemployment was supposed to provide short-term relief during changes of employment, especially termination that was beyond the employee's control, but it gets abused, much like everything else.

I suppose that anyone who is any good already has a job. I used to think that I could train anybody, and then I had a couple of people prove me wrong.

Good luck.
TonyF

9/12/21       #3: Why is there something like unemplo ...
Willem Martins  Member

Website: sandhillscustom.com

In response to Tony:

We have two installers currently, both on 1099 with own tools and equipment. We require insurance and a W9, no licenses needed.

The going rate here is $50 a cabinet, that means two visits, being initial install plus crown and hardware and a second visit to do light rail and shoe where applicable.

The two installers are pretty much booked 5-6 days a week, any additional installs we do ourselves, there are just two of us. When there is service such as touch-ups or adjusting drawers or doors we do that ourselves, as the installers are booked. No way we can find a third installer, which is impacting our capacity. We have 7 dealerships, purchase approximately 95% of what we install, the rest we build in our shop. We have four dedicated builders and a whole bunch more with business. No re-models or work for homeowners.

One installer is really good, in his early 30's, so to hang 16 cabinets for $800 is below his capacity. He averages close to $5,000 a week, works alone. If there is extra muscle needed, we go help.

The second installer is in his mid 60's, does quality work, but much slower. He probably averages around $2,000 - $2,500 a week.

We are turning jobs away, if we get a third installer on board, it will probably take a few months to load him to full capacity. So we shop around for time if someone has dead time, or we do it ourselves, which means less design and manufacturing time.

The county here is crazy with builders being fully extended right now.

9/12/21       #4: Why is there something like unemplo ...
rich c

That $800 a day sure was deceiving. Since he pays for the gas, his van, tools, health insurance, liability insurance, maybe disability insurance, vehicle insurance, social security, any licensing fees, and hotel costs if away from home.

9/13/21       #6: Why is there something like unemplo ...
Karl E Brogger  Member

Website: http://www.sogncabinets.com

Like most things, unemployment is a good idea, until it gets abused. There's no reason in this world to not have assistance available to get people back on their feet, or prevent massive failure. But unemployment isn't a way of life.

Unions were a good thing to give workers some power and actual ability to negotiate with employers, until it gets abused. Now the unions are stronger and larger than most of the employers.

The world has been full of jackwagons since there's been humans. Just the way it is unfortunately. I'm sure there's jerks in the animal kingdom as well, but I can't talk to them.

Sub installers usually would cost me $1000 per day. Typically two guys. They'd get a lot done in a day. It's not set in stone that way, more of what you can use as a wag when putting together pricing. I'm paying a lot more than that now. A recent job took the installer probably three days, I think he was there alone the whole time. $6k. But I don't have enough hours in the schedule to make it happen internally. If the people aren't in the shop turning product, it's not paying for itself.

I don't have enough work to justify having a fulltime or two fulltime installers. I wish I had the ability to do it within my company. I'm leaving a lot of dollars on the table. I probably could probably add the work, I'm not sure I could fulfill it though. It would mean adding more bodies in the shop as well. Then you're back to where the heck do you find the people!? At the moment, we're basically at capacity for hours, I can't get slides, I can't get hinges, and I'm struggling to get some materials. It's a dumpster fire. You just grind and try and add efficiencies where you can in the shop.

9/13/21       #7: Why is there something like unemplo ...
Mark B

800 a day around here is pretty much what most subs (electricians/plumbers/HVAC/Fire/security) are billing for a man, helper, and equipped van and thats from departing from their shop, to returning to the shop. So if its an hour commute each way, and a stop at the supply house (huge time suck sitting at the counter) your going to get about 5 hours work with lunch, commute, materials, out of an 8 hour day.

The 800 a day does sound lucrative if the commutes are short and the work is consistent over 50 weeks a year but as rich states, when you start chipping away at that 800 as a contract worker providing all your own tools, transport, insurance, and so on, I cant help but to imagine that number gets whittled down heavily. Most prospective candidates would see the 800 a day number as 200K a year which is a pretty decent gross for a 1 man or 1.5 man operation. It'd be interesting to know what your subs are running on their tax return at the end of the year. My guess is more than likely the gross is less than 200 due to all the time suck's throughout a week.

All told, its no shock you cant find anyone as a contractor operating autonomously and you can only wonder what your options would be if you were supplying a vehicle and all tools and materials paying 25/hr (200/day).

I dont think unemployment insurance really has much to do with it anymore other than certain union work as the employer has to be on-board to allow them to sit at the house when there is work to be done. Sure there's abuse, but I know a lot more companies during this pandemic that contested unemployment claims when calling people back (even with the 600) than just let them sit.

I know in my world no one wants this type of work, shop or install, period and it doesnt seem around here than any amount of compensation would change that.

9/13/21       #8: Why is there something like unemplo ...
Jeff

Who wants to install heavy cabinets and pack heavy tools in. Much easier to collect unemployment insurance and play video games.
Just saying. In my opinion it is a generational thing and I don’t see it getting any better.

9/13/21       #9: Why is there something like unemplo ...
Mark B

You cant collect unemployment insurance if the employer and the state dont allow it. Sure, you can wait out and get unemployment if you quit/fired etc but in pretty much every state I know of the criteria to even be eligible is not that much of an enticement for someone who needs to be looking at an 800/day profession and 200K a year. The loser that can live on $150 a week in unemployment (pre-tax) is not the one you should be worried about missing out on to install your cabinets and equip their own van, keep their insurance paid, and show up every day.

Then (in my state) people throw out those that are drawing 484 a week (pre-covid). These are people that were high-level earners that lost their jobs (50K a year) and are now sitting at the house drawing 484 a week PRE TAX as compared to their 1K a week gross paycheck with benefits when they lost their job. There is no motivation for the vast majority to sit back and "chill" on a video game drawing less than half the income they expanded their lifestyle to prior to becoming unemployed.

Im not defending the unemployed or unemployment insurance and am fully aware that its abused by employees and employers alike. The union/construction industry (gas pipeline, operating engineers, 798, etc are huge offenders because there is so much fat in the jobs they can afford to lay people off and employees infact ask/plan for it as a semi-paid vacation but thats not the norm for a $200 a week employee).

Bottom line is you must have XX consecutive weeks of employment in X quarters, yada yada varying per state and your draw is based on your income. While some employers allow the foolishness to go on those that are sitting around the house are not going to miraculously become your motivated staff when the check goes poof (which it does).

9/13/21       #10: Why is there something like unemplo ...
Jeff

Who wants to install heavy cabinets and pack heavy tools in. Much easier to collect unemployment insurance and play video games.
Just saying. In my opinion it is a generational thing and I don’t see it getting any better.

9/13/21       #11: Why is there something like unemplo ...
Mark B

If your hoping for a video-gamer/couch potato/cellar dweller to be your "star athlete" with regards to owning, operating, equipping, an efficient van/cab install buisness.. your in a bit of a predicament and likely no amount of pre-parenting was going to thwart that outcome.

Get use to the fact that individuals who are willing to do this type of work are going to cost exponentially more espcially with the youtube/instagram "maker" thing. Anyone and everyone thinks they can be self sufficient off some sort of maker shenannigans. You can pick them up on the back end.. but the front end is typically clean, back end typically has some pooh residue.

9/13/21       #12: Why is there something like unemplo ...
Willem Martins  Member

Website: sandhillscustom.com

As to own tools, vehicle, equipment etc., our cabinet installers do not need much. The overhead is really small. We deliver, sometimes even unbox. We place the cabinets close to where they go and supply all the materials. So recon the cost of a miter saw with stand, a contractor's saw some small tools and a pickup truck. Insurance here they pay under $40 a month.

9/13/21       #13: Why is there something like unemplo ...
David Waldmann Member

Website: vermonthardwoods.com

To the OP - sounds like you are in a bad way.

$800/day in any market other than NYC/LA etc is a very good rate, IMO, even for a 1099 sub.

A good sub would take that $800/day, multiply it by two, and get an apprentice to do the heavy lifting, paying them a generous $35/hr plus some basic benefits, and end up with $125/hr for themselves (after deducting overhead). Granted, those are seat-of-the pants numbers but I would bet they are close.

Problem is, there are many people that would rather make $15/hr doing nothing than $35/hr working. Sorry, can't help you there.

9/13/21       #14: Why is there something like unemplo ...
rich c

Lots of experts in people and lower class employment in this post! LOL Reminds me of my Dad who was born in 1923, talking about my generation (born 1952) of hippies (horse's asses in his language).

9/14/21       #15: Why is there something like unemplo ...
TonyF

Willem Martins:

If the particulars are as you say, with respect to pay, cabinet delivery, work to be installed, etc., you might approach some cabinetmakers and installers and make them a business proposition.

If you have the money, perhaps you could offer up assistance in procuring tools, vehicle, insurance, etc., and have them pay it back out of their proceeds. All contractually binding, of course, but if you truly can't find an installation company, you may have to help create one.

Just a though.
TonyF

9/14/21       #16: Why is there something like unemplo ...
Mark B

If you opt for any tool/vehicle supply even with reimbursement make sure you talk to your accountant or tax attorney. You could easily breach the 1099.

9/15/21       #17: Why is there something like unemplo ...
Steven

I would hate to see a kid fresh out of highschool let loose to install my cabinets who, only 3 months previously, had possibly never used a power tool in his entire life, lol.

10/29/21       #18: Why is there something like unemplo ...
Hostyr  Member

If you do not go to work, know that you are simply paying little for the job and your conditions are poor. Now there are many young people who are looking for work and are ready to work, only now they know their worth.


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