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Edgebander selection advice

1/20/24       
Quicktrim

Website: http://jkinteriorfinishllc.com

I am ready to upgrade my edgebander and am looking at a few options.

First a little backround, I have been in business for about four years. I startred with a 1997 holzher 1435 se and ran that for abouit a year. Then upgraded to a holzher 2001 Triathalon 420 with no premill, hogger, superfinish, scraper, single motor corner rounding, top and bottom scrape, buffer. After that it was a 2006 holzher Triathalon 1488 with top belt hold down, premill, hogger, superfinish, four motor corner rounder scrape, buff.

I am now wanting to have the ability to run PUR ( commercial medical and good amount of 3 mill ) and add misting units, better servos, and better corner rounding down to 1mm for our jobs that run 1mill banding. But mostly want more consistent results than I am getting from the 2006 ( parts are worn and springs are looseish. ) We get better banding than most of the shops around us running new machines but I have to constantly baby this machine and tune,lube,etc..need to have a machine that I can set up and then let the guys rip and I dont have to keep babysiting it.

All parts are CNC cut on a Andi Stratos so edges are pretty good going in. But the guys bump edges here and there in stacking so premill is still needed.

I have about 75k in cash reserves at the moment and credit lines available for about another 35k if needed for cashflow.

I have three options in front of me :
1: 2008 Brandt/Homag KDF 680 - 6000.00 Super Clean well maintained low hours

2: 2019 Holzher Lumina - about 45000.00 Clean but from a high production shop has laser and eva/pur units with it

3: Hold off till I can afford a new machine

My questions are:

1) Would the 2009 KDF 680 be much of an improvement over the holzher I am currently running ? Minimal investment , would allow me to invest more into automating other areas of the shop. Basicly is a very well maintained KDF 680 going to serve me better than a pretty used 2006 1488 , and will it buy me a few years to save some more $$ up. ( we can get by with eva on most everything we do but would like to be able to run PUR )

2) Would the 5 year old Lumina give amazing edges even if its had a lot of hours on it ?

3) The KDF does not have top belt hold down , the lumina does , would I miss the belt hold down terribly if I went with the KDF for the time being?

4) If you were making this descision at year four, as the company is still in growth mode what would you do ?

Thank you all !

1/21/24       #2: Edgebander selection advice ...
Neo Member

Seems like you're on track to trade in your edgebander once a year, and the Brandt would follow that pattern. Given its age you would likely be babysitting it soon if not immediately. Consider the cost of swapping out the machines: rigging, downtime, training etc. In this sense you may want to buy a machine that will have the PUR and be new enough that you can run it reliably for 5-10 years.

There is a reason the shop with the Holz Her is selling it, and it's not because the machine is obsolete...it's probably because it's becoming unreliable.

Edgebanders are the most high-maintenance and fickle machines in the shop, and they only become more so as they age. I'm all for buying pre-depreciated equipment, but edgebanders are the exception.

1/21/24       #3: Edgebander selection advice ...
Derrek

Used bander are for sale for a reason. Most of the time that reason is they are worn out and under maintained. You can buy a very good machine for the money you have. Vantedge has several models in 50-100k range that will do what you want.
Pm me and be glad to talk

1/22/24       #4: Edgebander selection advice ...
Rob Young Member

Website: http://nutekmachinery.com

Quicktrim- Give me a call, we have a 2013 Ott edgebander available in your price range with a service station/dry box that will allow you to preserve unused PUR glue for up to 7 days. We have used this as a loaner machine for customers waiting for new machines they ordered to arrive. Ott is the expert in PUR with over 95 percent of the machines they sell running PUR exclusively. That number is 100 percent in the U.S. for the new machines we have sold since bringing the line back into the states in 2021. Ott has been manufactured in Austria since 1963 and one of the heaviest built edgebanders in the industry.

I have added a link to a testimonial on Youtube of the last customer that used this machine.

On another note, I’ve been a technician since 1982 and in the woodworking industry since 1990 and I personally vetted each and every machine line we are importing into the U.S. with the goal of offering the most production efficient, dependable machines that produce the highest quality parts in the industry. I love to talk machines and processes and am happy to share the knowledge I have picked up over the years.

https://youtu.be/7JB89ZImojA?si=pywuf8GA5w2CpmFz

1/22/24       #5: Edgebander selection advice ...
Quicktrim

Thank you for the replies, I will be reaching out to you Rob and Derek.

1/27/24       #7: Edgebander selection advice ...
Bozzy

Similar to you I have had 4 edgebanders in the last 4 years. First was a 2006 BiMatic without premill or spray stations, then a 2021 Cehisa Compact PCS purchased at an auction for $25k. It had premill, a spray station and single motor corner rounding. We liked it, but it became too small once we started making fire doors. It was also slow at 10m/m. After that, we purchased a used 2007 Biesse Akron 855 for about $15k. That was a heavy duty machine that needed a tune up. Problem was that Biesse doesn't have local techs that know the older machines and wanted $12k for tech to fly in from Toronto for a week. At the time, I thought it was too much, looking back at it now, it might have been worth it. Eventually, I purchased a new Stefani KD HP a year ago because we make a lot of 1-3/4" 3ft x 7ft fire doors and needed a havy duty machine. It has servos on all the stations, corner rounding, three spray stations, can run PUR and track speed is 20m/m. We recently switched to unfilled PO glue and it's very hard to see the glue line from 2ft away on high gloss white panels. Bec6of the servos, the operator skill level is greatly decreased. All they have to worry about now is making sure the stations stay clean.

I've seen at least 4 of these machines at auctions where the shops are closing down and they end up going for around $50k. I think that's a smoking deal.

If I was in your position and didn't want to go the brand new route right now, I would wait for used one at an auction where the shop is closing down. I wouldn't necessarily be looking only for a stefani, but homag and holzher as well that are 5 years old or less.

I also purchased a return conveyor from China for $8k and it's worth its weight in gold.

1/27/24       #8: Edgebander selection advice ...
Quicktrim

What is unfilled PO glue ?
Is that different from eva and PUR ?

I like the idea of keeping cash reserves for now , and going new when I can really afford it.

Also I am not worried about a local tech for any brand as we have several good independent techs here in the Denver area that can service any brand .

That was basically the kind of response I was looking for to confirm my belief that growing as you can afford with cash can work .

1/27/24       #9: Edgebander selection advice ...
Bozzy Member

PO is polyolefin glue. We prefer to run unfilled glue because it works for 99% of our jobs, it's thinner and burns less. PO gives you a thinner edge than EVA and has a higher melting point once cured. I also find that it doesn't burn as much and lasts longer. Best part is that it doesn't need to be cleaned like PUR. Just run it like you would EVA.

With the higher interest rates scaring away customers and
warehouse costs skyrocketing, I feel like there will be a bunch of shops that will call it quits rather than relocating in the next 6-18 months. To me that equals lots of newer machinery at bargain rates if you can wait.

1/27/24       #10: Edgebander selection advice ...
Quicktrim

I like your thinking , that's my current opinion as well .

I will try the new glue and see what I think of it .

1/29/24       #11: Edgebander selection advice ...
Oggie  Member

We started using polyolefin (Jowat 237.50) with our Vantedge edgebander recently. Last commercial job we did (dark gray textured melamine) was done without scraper, buffer and spraying units - only trimming.
We are able to set glue dosage much better than with EVA glue.
There's no squeeze out glue at all, and yet when we unpeel tape, everything is covered, no gaps. That was not that easy to achieve with EVA glue.
It took me some time to find out who sells 237.50 in US, but pm me if you need help with that.

We purchased new Vantedge edgebander abouth half a year ago; sprayer -> premill -> glue station (with infrared preheat) -> guillotine -> top and bottom trimmer -> sprayer -> scraper -> buffing station.
We also got glue-pot heater/cleaner station with additional glue pot and corner rounding unit as two separate machines.
All this within your base budget.
Additional glue pot is very handy for switching to other colors quickly.

Besides some entry level edgebander, which is nowhere close this machine, I have no prior experience with similar machines, so can't compare it to other ones from the same category, but we've been very happy with this one and the support is awesome. Nothing looks overengineered, so all of the regular maintenance we can do ourselves and I believe most (if not all) of the servicing or repairs we would be able to do ourselves if need be.
This is a big thing for us, since we are a small shop that cannot spend thousands of dollars for someone to fly over here and do some repairs every now and then or thousands of dollars for simple parts, just because they were made proprietary for apparently no other purpose but to make money on after-sale services.
With no prior experiences with these types of machines some learning curve was expected, but any time we had a question support was literarily immediately available.

If you need more info let me know.

2/6/24       #12: Edgebander selection advice ...
Bruce H

Based on what I think your wants are I'd get a three year lease on a new machine and at the end of the lease turn it back in and get a new one. You are still going to need a trained operator.

2/19/24       #13: Edgebander selection advice ...
Justin Morris  Member

Website: https://www.centexautomation.net/

Get the Ott from Rob homie. Ott's have perfected PUR and the finish is amazing off of those machines.

3/13/24       #14: Edgebander selection advice ...
Dropout Member

I have a KDF 790, 2005 or 2006 vintage.

It took a while to dial it in, but once we did it runs extremely well.

Even if you pay $6K for it and put another $5K into it, you should have a good running machine.

They are not really that complicated, just look at it as 7 or 8 different machines on the same frame.


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