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Frameless to face frame12/27/15
We are a 2 man shop turning out mostly frameless cabinetry....Sometimes FF inset. I have a job coming up where the contractor specified "1/2" overlay WITH A FF"! Weird and outdated I think but hey, my opinion matters not.
We still do a lot of traditional face frame cabinetry with partial overlay doors.
Typically, I use 1 1/4" wide stiles, and a 1 3/4" wide top rail, 1 1/2" wide rail between top drawer and lower doors and/or lower drawers, and a flush filler on the bottom (with 3/4" ply used for the cases.)
Hinges and plates can be combined to give you your 1/2" overlay. Might be easier to go with a standard 110 degree full overlay hinge and a frame mount plate (full size hinge) and get a 5/8" coverage VS 1/2". I prefer the full size hinges myself.
I always use build outs to mount my slides - using the Moventos (same installation) I just build out the face frame with either basswood, or Baltic birch ply for the full depth. Typically, with my 1 1/4" wide stiles, and a 1/8" left on the outer section of the frame, I build out 3/8". I have thought about the plastic clips but the plastic breaks over time - Ive replaced them on other kitchens too often. A wood or ply build out looks nice (I sand and finish them) and will never fail.
As a professional your opinion does matter...whether they recognize it or not
For factory made, stock cabinets ˝” overlay is by far the most common nationwide followed by 1-1/4” overlay. The styles and rails are almost always 1-1’2”. These are 100% a compact style hinge. Just take a walk through the kitchen department at a Lowes or Home Depot.
For custom cabinets, the size of the stiles and rails and the type of hinge seems to be a regional preference and you will find a mix of compact style hinges and 2 piece long arm Euro hinges. “My grandfather did this so I do too”.
Rarely do I see stiles less than 1-1/2” and they can be as much as 2” for custom cabinets. Again, this seems to be a regional thing. There are some areas where 1-5/8” stiles and rails are common (Parts of Kentucky for example). For custom cabinets, the door overlay is all over the place, still with ˝” and 1-1/4” overlay being most common. If you look at the (compact) hinge overlays offered by major hinge manufacturers you will find hinge overlays anywhere from 1/4” up to 1-5/8” to meet the market by market demand.
In some areas in the Midwest you can barely give away compact style hinges to custom shops. They are generally viewed as a lower end production hinge with definite design disadvantages. In other more price sensitive areas or where larger numbers of cabinets are being produced daily by regional cabinet “manufacturers” the compact hinge is preferred largely due to price. The compact hinge group does however have the advantage of accomplishing the larger overlays on wider face frames.
I guess there is a place for everything.
With the 1 1/4" stiles I use, and the typical 5/16" overlay hinge I use you see 15/16" of the frame once the door is hung.
Just a question, to no one in particular...
What is the purpose of using a 2" stile, and then covering it up with a 1 1/4" overlay hinge? You still see approx the same amount of frame, but you have a much smaller opening, larger build out to deal with, and more material used.
Visually, weve been making framed cabinets like we do since the 70's - up here in our neck of the woods they seem to be similar to the factory made options as well. I know varying regions do things differently.
To me, the whole point of a framed cabinet is for the look of a framed cabinet - the space between the doors and fronts. Sure, it also makes a more sturdy box if done well (we groove our frames to be set over the box and glued on, with tenons used on the frame joints - makes a very sturdy unit) but for all intents and purposes, a frame-less box made from 3/4" stock and well engineered (joinery that is) is strong enough also.
The popularity of the full-overlay, framed cabinet really makes no sense to me. Looks the same as a frame-less, but more work, more cost and no benefits IMO.
Again, just a question. Since we are a custom shop, I build all types of cabinets depending upon what the customer wants.. so I am not set on one style or the other.
Chris, what you describe as "weird and outdated" is 99.9% of what we build.
Thanks for the replies. Mike, no disrespect, I just haven't seen any shops or requests for my shop building overlay face frame cabinets. It seems a thing that is mostly mass produced. Let me get this straight...with 1/2" overlay on a 1 1/2" stile the reveal from door to door is 1/2"? The reveal from door edge to can end is 1"? Unless, as some others suggest different size stiles and rails according to a constant reveal throughout they job.
Chris, I didn't feel disrespected, I thought it was funny.
Mike, call me old school - but I'd take that look (in your photo) over a frameless look any day of the week. While I prefer the look of inset doors with frames - I'd still go overlay such as yours rather than frameless. Not looking for arguments here, I build both - it's what the client wants or is willing to pay for that matters, not my personal preferences.
I do abhor how I've seen many kitchens with up to 4" styles between doors. Yikes! ;-)
Anyway - that's a nice looking kitchen you posted there!
Thanks for the explanation mike. 1/2" everything...that's interesting. I may have to explore that. Thanks everybody
I have never been asked to build a frameless cabinet. Everything is 1/2" overlay and 1" reveal. Frame pieces are 1-1/2 or 2".
I cut 1/4" tongues on the sides and corresponding grooves on the back of the face frame some glue and clamps and you have it.
I'm with Mike Fuson on this one, I've built FF since 1971. I am in Texas, I have built 1 set of frameless cabinets in my career and my customer was from Poland. I also absolutely can not sell a MDF door or a single piece of particle board here. Every part of the country is different I guess. JBDyer
I am up in Ontario, Canada and one of the last few I think doing FF...seems the entire country has switched over to Frameless and you don't even see the box store's selling anything else anymore! Good for me though...I am in a niche market and need to make FF due to my rustic woods I use. Anyway, here is what I do and after reading the above posts it seems like I am different than most.
I guess looking at the way I do my FaceFrame's its more of a hybrid sort of speak with the flush interior's....works for me as I can't find edge banding or plywood for half of the rustic stuff I am getting into these day's!!!
A few more picture's of one of the few painted I have done lately (Island was rustic though!)