Contemplating a cnc router

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Mike,
You actually can do it for $25k. Check out Omni CNC. It's chinese. You can get a decently equipped router for about $20k, and you'll need another $5k to upgrade KCD to the CNC version and get a post processor for your machine. Then you're off and running.

I use KCD too. It's kind of a no brainer. In this economy, you'll earn your investment back in less than a year.

Family Man

Mike,
I'm going to weigh in on the opposite side of this somewhat. I did what you did and examined all of the data. CNC is awesome under the right circumstances. If you are doing quantity, trying to cut labor costs at certain quantity levels or do a wide range of radius, cut outs, etc.

But I'm never going to cut out music notes and I have no desire to get into radius work that a CNC would speed up.

At the price point you are looking at I can do at least double, possibly triple, the amount of cutting and milling of parts with manual equipment versus the CNC of that price point in the same time frame. Certainly racing one of the bigger machines is a fool errand in the long run. Of course the machines are going to be more accurate, but not enough to make a difference to those in the field. The installer won't be able to tell, let alone the client.

There is no doubt at a certain quantity level a CNC is a no brainer, hands down or if you want to do some of the things the other gentlemen are talking about and wanting to expand your product line. So in other words I think it comes down to what you want to do quantity wise and range of work you want to do.

Much like when I'm working on something I want to focus-loading a sheet and walking away for a couple minutes to sand, band, etc would drive me nuts and lower my efficiency- I also like to focus my product line.

I know it's a minority opinion. CNC are great. They just aren't for my business. Perhaps they are for yours. Good luck with your decision. Hope it works out for you.

Matt Calnen

Hi mike, I am a small mom and pop shop that is in the same boat as yourself. I have been subbing my CNC work to another local company and so far it has been going well. I bring this up as you might want to try this first to see how things go and how efficient things can be. Why, at your age, it might not be worth it to buy a machine, but just sub out to other shops. I have found that with my lifestyle, it’s better to not take on debt and overhead, but to ride the economic work waves as they come. Just another thought.
Hey Paul, where are you in NorMich? I’m up in Harbor Springs, good to meet someone close on Woodweb

Jim Herron

Have you considered a pod and rail machine? Most have a router spindle and stand alone machining software that can be programmed right at the machine.
I have a Weeke BP 60.
I cut sheet goods on a Striebig then machine for dowel or confirmat screw assembly.
It does construction holes, line bores for adjustable shelving, bores attachment holes for slides and hinge plates and can saw the groove for the back (though I build frame less and confirmat the 18 mm back)
I would second that you could sell
frameless ... you just have to sell its benefits to yourself first...
I honestly haven't been asked about construction method in 20 years, but most homeowners are impressed with the strength of the confirmat screw assembly.
I have been asked about material used for cases.. (I use 18 mm veneer core birch- sides, top, bottom, back and shelves, also requires stocking just one sheet product other than finish species)
Most homeowners have a phobia, justified or not, regarding particle board, and 1/2" wouldn't work with frameless
Going frameless would lend itself to less assembly labor (assuming you have an edgebander), allow you to lose the face frame material and labor, and standardize assembly and hardware installation

Mike Fuson

Great video James. I was watching a YouTube video earlier today of an IWF video on the CAMaster router where they were talking to a Jim Mcgrew, I thought that had to be you, to big of a coincidence.
Wondering if you cnc owners could give more info on table size. It seems that the difference I’m seeing on many brands is only 1k to go from a 4x8 to a 5x8? I don’t know why a 5’ wide would be needed unless you process 5x5 sheets, which I do occasionally.
Also, in my learning process of bit changing it appears that an automatic bit changer is an option but expensive, or what appears to be a main spindle and two additional routers which hold different bits. This seems to be the best option to me or is it?
Sorting through brands is like trying to get the pick of a litter of pups, some are pretty but will it be a good dog or lie on the porch and want you to scratch his belly? The CAMaster at this point looks like a good option but which one would I want is up in the air, it’s hard to know what your needs are when you don’t know yourself. I have a history of getting a piece of equipment that I can afford only to wish six months later that I had gone bigger. I don’t want to make that mistake on this. The ShopBot is another option, it kinda looks generic compared to others but I realize that has nothing to do with performance. The Legacy machines looks like it’s full of options also, I’m not sure I’d want to do the turnings, looks like even with a cnc there would still be a lot of sanding to do. Is it still better to outsource some things even though you have a cnc that can do it?
Anyway, at this point my plan is to read and research, learn all I can until August and go to the IWF and look first hand. I think I’ll know a lot more about what I’m looking at and the options available and what I plan to do by then.

Mike Fuson

Family Man, this same question was posted earlier this past year and my reply to it was almost identical to yours. I can cut a pretty big kitchen worth of sheet goods in a days time and line bore, etc. but then another reply on that thread someone mentioned it was like hiring another worker that knew what I know to do my job while I went and done something else. That made a lot of sense to me. I can’t tell you at the times when I’ve told potential clients my time frame and they have told me that I need to hire more help, to which my reply was, I don’t need more help I just need more me. So with me being short handed now I see this as a possible opportunity to hire someone with my knowledge and not have to pay them like they know what I know. I really think it will help with some of the time consuming things that I do. I try to be creative in my designs and this would open up new possibilities. Not to mention the older I get I could possibly do some things on it to bring in income that is not back breaking work.
Matt, I have let another shop do some cnc work for me before, wasn’t any problem with it, just took me a while to get there and get back. I try to keep as much in house as I can. As far as my age goes, I’m not in my prime but not over the hill either. I’ve been a fairly smart businessman I think. I’ve never financed or leased and equipment, I’ve grown as my wallet did. I’m not in debt other than a Kubota tractor that will be paid off in June, which would be about the same payment as a cnc would be. Plus I’m not talking about an investment that’s going to take forever to pay off, if we are realistically talking about 20-30k you can’t hardly buy a new truck for that anymore?

james e mcgrew

Member

My first machine was 4 feet wide, my 2nd thu the current 5 x 8 have all been 5 feet wide, i neede the 5 feet for a lot of reasons as we now cut commercial at 61 x 97 sheets, well worth the extra money, to me a cabinet maker needs 5 x 8 table 5 zone vac plenum, good vacuum hold down and an ATC of 5-8 tools

Bill

This is probably not what some want to hear but I will say it because it needs to be said.

Before we had a router we had the saw guy. I was the saw guy for years. There is a lot of knowledge in the saw guys head. He also likes to cut standard stuff. When something custom or unusual comes up he slows down a lot. Sometimes he cuts the normal version before he cuts the correct custom version. He also goes on vacation, gets sick, takes another job, has a bad day and may have an issue that makes him miss weeks of work. A saw no matter the quality no matter the operator is not perfect every time.

Right now my newest employee can run my router cell, rout all the parts, edgeband and bore. I did not set out to have him do it and he is not my main guy but he can run the machine. As can I, as can the shop manager. I have 4 people that can run that machine efficiently. It is faster than a sawyer could ever be. It can do things that can not be done easily on a saw. It can do complex things over and over and it comes out the same. If a part is damaged it can easily be redone quickly. There are no special setups or fixtures.

I can't really speak for a two man shop, I did not approach it that way but a router is a way for any shop to be much more efficient, flexible, accurate and creative.

If you are in the $30K range ask yourself a question. Who could you hire for $30K for the next 10 years to cut all your sheet goods (plus other things you don't realize right now). Even if you are the saw guy your time is best spent elsewhere.

An example that might resonate would be the thinking "I am not using that new circular saw, my hand saw is tried and true it took me years to become an expert." Another example is when sheet goods were created and the cabinet maker said solid wood is the best solution, that plywood is not real craftsmanship. Sounds ridiculous now but I am sure that thinking was prevalent.

The market has changed, the technology has changed. Routers are affordable. Do you really want to stick with the handsaw?

Our first router was the best investment I have ever made in anything. I bought a stout European machine, I sweated the purchase price. In hindsight I should have gone larger. Eventually I did and now we run 2.

Some things that have been mentioned and some things that have not.

A router has nothing to do with radius work. Sure it does that well but that is not the point.
Our router saves money on tooling. We can cut more sheets with a less expensive tool that cost less to sharpen than a saw.
Your yield will go up no matter the person on the router.
Your creativity will be enhanced not taken away.
Your ability to solve problems will be taken in another direction not taken away.
There is less scrap to throw away.
Get a toll changer, I always want more tools.
Get a drill head if at all possible.

Some downsides.

You must have a company with excellent service.
You must have a company with excellent service.

Saving money on the front end will be lost if the machine is not reliable. They must have people in the field that can help. Not a guy but a company that will continue to function for years for sure. If you can't afford the machine you know you should buy wait. Don't buy a no name router. I would stick with known names, companies that have been around, proven.

Once a company reaches critical mass it is time for a router. I do not mean to offend anyone but this to me in hindsight is obvious.

Good luck to the OP.

james e mcgrew

Member

Bill, That was well written and some damn good advice.

I am going larger this year, trying to make a new building decision and incorporate machinery installs on that

Bob

We have had our router for 8 years now.
4x8 Omnitech and Cabinet Vision software.
Best thing I ever did.
We are a 3 person shop and can now take on larger projects then I ever would have tackled before.
Another option is to find a local shop with a CNC and have them cut for you.
We cut for 3-4 shops right now. For one of them we cut all of their work.
He emails me his cabinet list, I enter into our software and send him simple drawings of each cabinet. He signs off on the job, we machine, band and assemble for him.
He now has the supplier drop his plywood at our shop.

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Paul Miller

Some great posts here. Bill said it all as did Jim. One comment I noticed. "At my age". The CNC is a lot of fun. I just turned 68 and I have no interest in retiring. I work for people that have retired. A lot of them set up little wood shops in their garages or pole barns. Most of them watch way too much TV. I cannot imagine anything more fun than what I am doing now. And, the CNC makes that possible.

rich c.

If I was a two man shop, using KCD, I'd send a few jobs to Cabinotch to test how much speed you would gain by outsourcing the boxes. It's a lot cheaper than a CNC, you know the exact cost of the boxes to the penny, and you won't loose any time while learning software and machine operation. Also no time on the phone with tech, with both the software and CNC machine company. Then if you don't see the advantage of outsourcing, then shop for the CNC. You can really make some time with the prefinished plywood box parts.

Mike Fuson

More good points and info that I appreciate.

Jim Herron, I didn’t even know what a pod and rail machine was, had to watch a YouTube video to know what you were referring to. It appears to be similar to a router but I just don’t know the difference. I’m in kindergarten on all this stuff.

Bill your comments make perfect sense, and I agree with James, it’s good advice. I guess I just always assumed that these routers were for the bigger shops bringing in more revenue and it was out of reach so I never gave it much thought, much less researched the possibility of owning one myself. Your comments make me realize that I probably should have done this several years ago.

Paul Miller, I like your outlook. When I say “at my age” I’m saying that it’s not like I’m nearing retirement even if I did want to. I think a previous poster was saying “at my age” I might want to think about not investing. I was thinking at my age it would be safe. If that makes sense, I plan on working for a long time yet. As far as the fun part goes, I think it’s fun now, I enjoy working and creating the things that I’ve done, and evidently I’ve been going about it the hard way. I can see a router letting me get off my feet a little more also and not constantly walking back and forth between a table saw and a plywood rack. I do have some back issues.

rich.c
I understand what your saying, I’ve checked out cabinotch a little. There has always been a debate on here about outsourcing and whether it is profitable or better to build in-house. I guess it’s all about what we want our end game to be. I outsourced doors until about 3 years ago and then I bought the equipment to do it myself and it paid for itself in no time. So I guess if one wanted to they could outsource the doors, let cabinotch or as some of the others have said another Shop could cut the parts. I think it was Bob that said he even bands and assembles another shops cabinets for them. If you sub out the finish work as well then you’re no longer a cabinet shop but a middle man. And that’s fine if that’s your end game and what you want to do to make your living, nothing at all wrong with it. I know a guy right now that has amazing talent and was doing good in his shop, then just quit and started buying rta cabinets and assembling. His reasoning was that he could buy a set of cabinets and put them together cheaper than he could buy a set of doors for. He still does it and has done well. As for me, it’s not all about the money. I’m like Paul, I thinks it’s fun and I like doing it. Main thing is be happy at whatever you do, life is to short to work a job that you’re not happy in doing. That just my opinion on it.

Bob

I'm not in business to make cabinets, I'm in business to make money.

rich c.

I know a lot of folks don't like outsourcing, saying they want to keep the craftsmanship in house. But the difference between having someone else pushing a button to cut boxes out, vs. you pushing a button to cut boxes is pretty thin in my opinion.

cabinetmaker

We have a decent sized shop with a cnc router, a larger bander and dowel/insert, we run a lot of commercial casework and lots of corian I am getting ready to get a cnc saw for our stone shop @ the end of this year for the automation

We own two forklifts, the Blum machines we added 20 years ago came with the same " why did we wait so long ?" same as the edgebander, wide belt and then the cnc. We run CabinetVision, again beating our heads against the wall we just went to CV10 and hear the what took so long ? We have 5 seats and 2 s2m keys. All of the upgrades and all the equipment has been great, but hands down the cnc, soft ware, bander and forklifts have saved us years on our bodies

So my friend runs a hi end residentail shop and would never buy a cnc, I cut a house full of cabinets for him with mine in 4 hours, And I am talking 40 plus cabinets He bought my older edgebander, a cnc and now uses prefinished plywood, outsources his doors with Walzcraft, does all his own finishing and pays one of my installers on the weekend to help him goes through guys like water, but the cnc keeps cutting

JP

Member

Get a auto toolchanger. Unless it's just a hobby machine, you're going to be really really glad you did.

CNC is bunch of money to a new buyer and a bunch of learning and messing around at first. You will probably change some things on how you build your boxes.

leon513

Member

The cnc router is a very versatile function. For engraving purposes, efficiency is not to be discussed because of patterns, textures, and graphics. Both limit efficiency. Used to make panel furniture production, atc cnc router, will be the best choice. High efficiency, low labor costs.
This video will be more clearly expressed.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUQvXA_ZC6s

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ATC CNC Router

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