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Software for non-CNC shops

R Statham Member

Is anyone running a design software that doesn't have CNC? I am looking at upgrading instead of doing hand drawings for the shop.

My question is some of this software offers cut list too, and I am wondering how well that works, seeing there are so many ways to build cabinets. For example I use M&T for my face frames. Will this allow for the tongue length on the cut list? And what about plywood that goes into a dado, will it allow for that too?

It just seems that there would be a lot of parameters, for a cut list to work. And software might be able to do that, but I have no clue if it can?

Thanks in advance!

4/6/20       #2: Software for non-CNC shops ...
Karl E Brogger  Member


We use Mozaik, it's priced pretty darn reasonably, even with the full cnc version. I'm happy with it.

We had cabnetware, but it basically doesn't exist anymore, but you could buy a copy second hand. I sold my key when we got the cnc.

We've got a key for cabinet vision, it was expensive and I don't have any nice things to say about them.

I have not had any exposure to Cabinetpro.

The varying levels of any of the softwares will make parts lists to whatever degree you need for the most part.

4/7/20       #3: Software for non-CNC shops ...
SteveL Member

I'll second Mozaik. I have been very happy with them. I used it before I got into CNC.
It will do what you listed after getting your construction method set up.
You can also grow into the CNC world with this program or stay where you are.
A subscription based program is probably wise right now given the current times.

4/7/20       #4: Software for non-CNC shops ...
james e mcgrew  Member


I went to Moziak last Fall after several years of not being able to grab the transition,, Glad I did

4/7/20       #5: Software for non-CNC shops ...
pat gilbert

You might consider Cabinet Sense

I tried Moziak for a several months and found the lack of support insufferable. Yeah they have the forums.

The main reason I like Cabinet Sense (so far) is the ability to mix standard cabinets with custom in 3d in sketchup.

People say they can get custom out of Cabinet Vision but the only one I have seen really do it is Microvellum the minimum requirement for MV is at least one guy who does nothing but MV in your shop. And it is big bucks.

Cabinet Sense is quite easy and affordable way less than the others accept maybe Mozaik, I can't remember the price for Mozaik.

I don't think it would do mortise and tenon FF though. Not many cabinetmakers do that. I would consider the trade offs on that one.

Funny the search for holy grail continues decade after decade

4/7/20       #6: Software for non-CNC shops ...

Yes as to allowing for M/T, Yes as for calculating dados, Yes as to calculating part size with edging thickness allowance, Yes to various construction methods, Yes as to providing cutlists,and drawings.
Microvellum, it might be overkill today but you will not have to replace it in a couple of years. You don't have to be using CNC router or Beam saw those are options. It uses the industry standard AutoCAD for drawing. 2D or can convert 3D models in to 2D and generate an accurate cutlist.

4/7/20       #7: Software for non-CNC shops ...
pat gilbert

As to MV, if considering it just go to their booth at any show and ask them to demonstrate something custom that is not one of their canned programs. Like the reception desk with the tapered/angled supports, something else.

4/7/20       #8: Software for non-CNC shops ...

Pat you sound like a discouraged MV user. It can do exactly what you asked. A tremendous amount depends on the skill of the user, it isn't for everyone.

4/7/20       #9: Software for non-CNC shops ...
Michael Sanders Member

Another vote for Mozaik. Will do everything you want. I find the support to be excellent and the software improves with every major update; an advantage of the subscription model . I started off with their manufacturing and optimizer when I still used a table saw to cut my pieces. Made a huge difference in efficiency going from design to production. Now I have CNC and the transition was very easy being used to the software.

4/7/20       #10: Software for non-CNC shops ...
MarkB Member

Another CabinetSense user here. Killer support, really amazing. And we do a ton of varied work so we use are in Sketchup daily and use CabinetSense for a ton of stuff outbound of just cabinets.

The real issue to download a few trial versions of various packages and see which makes sense to the way your brain works. Some people just see the logic in Autocad, never worked for me.

If your not going to be hiring a full time draftsman you need to find a title that makes sense to you and then work yourself around the software. The drawing alone is time consuming in itself and if your fighting with the software all the time (whether your fault or the software's) your just losing more time.

4/7/20       #11: Software for non-CNC shops ...
dustin orth

I used Cabinet Vision with lots of success over the years, yes the price tag can be a killer but I did so many projects on that program that I couldn't count them all. It could do everything you want and more with flexibility to do the standard stuff and then every once in a while I did weird stuff. The amount of time to draw something and then make any changes will make your head spin, most projects below were drawn and ready to send to the shop within a few hours from concept to final drawings. Arch top china cabinets, bow front vanitys and once an arched bottom false beam that had panels on both sides and bottom and set on turned columns on both ends and was 22' long in one piece. It can be upgraded to CNC if you ever get one, we didn't either and worked off cutlists and assembly sheets. Friend of mine did do the upgrade to CNC and had been using CV for around 2 years and once the CNC was up and running they were cutting cabinets the next day. Think he told me they almost doubled their output just because of that. That's another discussion though that's been tomato tommato to death here. Just my 2 cents.

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4/7/20       #12: Software for non-CNC shops ...
pat gilbert


I looked at it in depth and decided it wasn't worth the trouble, the skill you talk about was the MV salesman, the only guy who could begin to demonstrate it was Rodger Shaws top guy.

As to the Mozaik guys what support?

Cabinet Vision is a cabinet program and the items described by Dustin are cabinets nothing I would consider to be custom in the sense of a reception desk, store fixture, nurses station

4/7/20       #13: Software for non-CNC shops ...
Dustin Orth

I guess one question is what kind of projects do you do? Say 95 percent of the time. Straight forward cabinets? Furniture? Like Pat mentioned above, die well curved reception desks? That information will guide you towards the right software. As far as the projects that Pat mentioned, I could draw them in CV, but I've had years of experience with it so that's a little skewed compared to someone just starting. Do you have any experience with any CAD software?

4/7/20       #14: Software for non-CNC shops ...
pat gilbert

I used Solidworks for a lot of years then transitioned to Autodad 3d and Smartlister and now on to Cabinet Sense all told about 30 years experience.

4/7/20       #15: Software for non-CNC shops ...
pat gilbert

Mostly store fixtures, some commercial cabinets some hospital work very little residential work

4/8/20       #16: Software for non-CNC shops ...
Dustin Orth

Pat, you do mostly commercial where as I was doing 99% residential. Depending on what you are doing, different software will shine and others will not. All depends on what this gentleman needs for his shop.

4/8/20       #17: Software for non-CNC shops ...
pat gilbert

Whoops I thought you were asking me.

Yes CV is the go to for residential but I think the market place for cabinet software is changing to a subscription and CV may have to change but Mozaik seems to be taking the lion share of this.

In case the OP doesn't know Roger Taylor is the same guy who created CV and Mozaik and Cabnetware

I really like the ability to mix custom and standard as with Cabinet Sense

Most CV guys I have dealt with do not have the ability to do this or import dxfs into CV which Cabinet Sense does quite nicely

Not trying to spam but as I said the only one I have seen that could do this was MV. Maybe in residential you don't have this issue. I'm doing a wine room for a residential that does require this and I doubt CV could do this.

4/8/20       #19: Software for non-CNC shops ...
Frank D. Jimenez  Member


Classical mortise and tenon joinery, along with blind dado construction are fully supported in all versions of Cabinet Pro software.

So to answer your question, yes the non-CNC version supports mortise and tenon construction for ALL parts, including face frame stiles, rails, and mullions. The main difference between the non-CNC and the CNC versions of Cabinet Pro is that this machining is automatically performed on the CNC router with the CNC version of Cabinet Pro. The non-CNC version will give you the correct sizes of the various parts, but of course you will have to machine them manually.

If you were to enter the CNC world at some point in the future, blind dado construction, as well as conventional mortise & tenon construction, are supported and described in the video below.

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4/8/20       #20: Software for non-CNC shops ...
Frank D. Jimenez  Member


For the video described above, please see the following URL at

4/8/20       #21: Software for non-CNC shops ...
pat gilbert


Can your software put custom reception desks, cash wraps, nurses stations and standard cabinets in the same drawing in 3d?

Does your utility to do M&T case goods replace the need addressed by tenocam?

4/10/20       #22: Software for non-CNC shops ...
Frank D. Jimenez  Member


Hi Pat,

Yes, Cabinet Pro can make the custom cabinets you mentioned including placing face frame cabinets AND frameless cabinets in the same room. HOWEVER, it is my opinion that Microvellum does a much better job in the making of circular reception desks and the like than does our software.

TenonCam is an outstanding tool that was brilliantly developed by David Hilker. Cabinet Pro does not REPLACE that technique. Rather, Cabinet Pro supports ANY tool that operates in a similar manner as TenonCam.

However, our primary method of M&T and blind dado construction uses common tools and nothing special. Our primary method is quick, relatively easy, and, described in the video shown at the following link:

4/10/20       #23: Software for non-CNC shops ...
pat gilbert


Yes the Hilkers produce very good cabinets.

But those bits are not cheap.

So I guess one has to ask themselves if it is worth the expense of using the bits. But alas most everybody uses dowels.

MV has a huge ante in time and money.

What does Cabinet Pro use as a platform?

4/10/20       #24: Software for non-CNC shops ...
Frank D. Jimenez  Member



Keeping expenses down and quality intact for our customers are two of our main goals. Our primary method of using common bits (tools) for M&T construction accomplishes this very well.

I understand the huge ante to which you refer. We have just changed our business model to meet the financial demands caused by Covid-19. We now charge 50% for our software initially with the 50% balance due in 6 months! So far, we've had very good reception of this new model.

Cabinet Pro uses no 3rd party software such as AutoCAD or SketchUp as its platform. All of our software is original and owned by Cabinet Pro LLC. Why do you ask?

4/10/20       #25: Software for non-CNC shops ...
pat gilbert

Because most are as you know. Not sure about Mozaik or Cabinet Vision although I heard one time that CV used SolidWorks somehow but that is just what someone said albeit a software guy.

That sounds like a lot or work?

I'm not attacking you just trying to understand.

4/12/20       #26: Software for non-CNC shops ...

R Statham,

Here are some screen shots from Mozaik, if you are not needing the CNC version it will cost you 75.00 a month. It will give you all the cut lists and functionality you are wanting.

It does not need sketchup to work it is a stand alone program. However the ability that it has to export a job file as a sketchup model has been an incredibly helpful and useful tool for me.

Notice that the job I posted has cut out pulls that are non symetrical and auto generated parametrically for each cabinet. It only took a few minutes to set this up and I have only been using this program for about 6 months. Also notice the pantry cabinet has an angled top to fit under a set of stairs. This was something that I struggled to do in some other software packages.

Being able to work with sketchup has allowed me to draw kitchens quickly and then overlay them into a picture of the homeowners kitchen and photorender it to show them what it will look like with their furniture and artwork. Pretty cool stuff actually.

And for 75.00 try it for a month, you will have to put in some time to learn it, like all software its just another tool.

My experience Pat, has been hands down the best customer service I have ever recieved for the price. If I have a problem, email the help desk and within 24 hours, sometimes same day. I have a reply with the answer or a video of how to do it.

My 2 cents.

Click the link below to download the file included with this post.


Click the link below to download the file included with this post.


Click the link below to download the file included with this post.


5/4/20       #27: Software for non-CNC shops ...
Butortervezo  Member


My cabinet design software:

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