one cute note,, on those radius desk I made the dxf in Aspire (2k) and could have done it in VCP (600.00) I layed out the vectors (more on that later) in the pattern I wanted divided it up by sheet size my machine can handle (Ex 4x8) he cut them upside down, doing it this way the radius face parts came off the machine kerfed and cut to form.. Made quick work of those face radiuses..

love making sculpted panels as well !!

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Here are some pics of the new 408 ATC camaster has built, At this Price they are gonna continue to "Change the shape of things"

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I think your approach to long term success needs to be invested in the future of manufacturing. You should be looking at an entire package such as the Thermwood Cut Center. I'm not affiliated in any way with Thermwood, however i have spent many years programming/operating/setting most major and minor machines in the industry. After all the expenses and tooling and software and programming you will be better off with an entire package.

I've been researching and sitting on the fence of cnc for about a year. I think any mid level atc cnc (fmt, camaster, shop sabre, shopbot) will be just fine. I think the bigger factor is programming. As annoying as ecabinets may be it's free. Sorry but drawing rectangles and circles and having a cnc cut them out is not the way of the future. But software with intelligent joints and being fully parametric is the future. Being able to take a stock cabinet and drag the front face to a random 37 degs or even radiused and hit "print" and then (aside from round doors) be able to assemble without grabbing a measuring tape, that's the future. Even that radiused desk should be able to made fully parametric. So next week when it's a 60" radius as opposed to 80" and 6" taller all you need to change a few dimensions and collect all the pieces off the router (including the frame) The only way I see this happening is very very expensive software or possibly a free ecabinets program? This almost has me leaning shopbot as much as I never thought I'd say it. As all the other software options (other then possibly mosaic) fall really short in my opinion. I can barely stomach the midlevel machine costs so add expensive software and I'm not sleeping at night. (and maybe yes I should just wait a little longer until I can justify all the other numbers)

james do you use digital measuring for your curved work or just go off of the architects plans

here is a video i did a while back, yes you can spend a lot more money and i am no fan of free.... i will post more later as i have a lot more experience with this since i did this vid a few years ago.

We have a 3 day "camp" in my shop this spring with a good 150 CM's who use these softwares come each year. (7 years now) you should consider attending. I took the short way of not spending thousands (tens of thousands) in software and what I learned has done me well. i have had CW since 97 it produces box shops well and gives me a list of cabinets, i use Cpp for nesting at 250.00 there is nothing in the market which can touch it, i use Aspire for all my custom, by learning to use the vectors from the architects and a few methods readily available i have done as well as i wanted to. Now if you have big plans to jump into High production go get a good banker, software is going to be the last of your worries !

John, your thoughts are right on. But what you are calling the future is really today if not the past.

We are in an economic upturn. I don't know how long it will last but I am going to guess at least 4-5 years. Then Wall Street will bang us all again, but don't get me going.

My company is 13 years old. It started around 911 so I have been through 2 recessions. I am very Conservative. I agree that to a large degree it is all about the software. Any reasonable machine can cut out cabinet sides and parts all day. We all feel good buying a machine something you can look at and show your family. The reality is that you should invest in good software. That is where the significant time savings is. The machine, any reasonable machine executes the software's commands. Your ability to quickly and correctly tell the machine what to do is were the money is at.

The point I am trying to make is that it bothers you to spend the money on the software, it bothers everyone BUT it should not. That is what you should get excited about not the hardware.

We got a CNC in January.

We use CAD Code software that allowed us to create spreadsheets that create our specialized product parametrically. People in the office enter the specifications of what they sold and the product is programmed, they don't have to know how to program they just need to know what they want. It is incredible. The effect on the shop and office is staggering. Our sales are up 16% and our labor is up 1%.
Based on our volume the machine is paid for.

I am not suggesting CAD Code is for you I am sharing my experience.

But going from manual processes to CNC is significant. The thing you hear over and over is, why did I wait so long. When there is an economic upturn is when you make these moves.

I understand that thermwood routers are awesome, and I can see how the cut centers will be the way of cabinet manufacturing to come, but as in my original post I want to stay within 35k or less to my door. Cant even come close with thermwood, and as I stated previously I do not like ecabinets that much. If an when I do buy my first cnc it will be initially and primarily be used to process my sheet goods for cabinets. The process of a big spindle pecking holes kind of bothers me(4+hp pecking a 5mm hole seems way over kill), but I guess its not a big deal? Just seems like a lot of unnecessary repetition for the main head of a router. Really like the Idea of an auxiliary drill or drill block, but camaster does not offer this. Boss cnc offers a 5 spidle drill block(awesome) but they are more like 50k, and shopbot offers air drills which I think are pretty cool, light weight and built for the task of light drilling just wish I could get one on the camaster

I will be nesting next week send me an email and I will tell you when, you can watch for yourself,, A drill bank is just a lot more drill same big motor, Camaster can put a drill bank on a cobra (or at least I have seen them do this) but again comes the $$$

A drill bank also adds weight to the gantry. Additional weight will slow the ramp up and ramp down speeds slightly. You want the big HP spindle for cutting the profiles of your parts so you hog the material out fast with a single pass.

The fact that your tablesaw has 5 or more HP, doesnt stop you from cutting 1/8" hardboard. Same with a big spindle drilling little holes. Overkill yes, but thats not what you have the HP for.

When I was buying my cobra, I was really contemplating adding the drill bank. In hind sight, I am glad I didnt spend the extra money. I am happy with the single spindle and 10 position changer.

I really wouldnt let an air drill or drill bank be a make or break decision. I wouldnt even consider either of those a necessity. For the size of your shop, and machines you are considering, the extra money is better off spent on more vacuum, did I mention you cant have enough vacuum, or a larger main spindle.

Would an air balancer for the z axis be a good idea for drilling? What would be an honest recommendation for a vacuum set up. Best bang for the buck.

If you don't consider software I would get the new stinger four with their Hurricane vacuum, that to me is the best bang for buck. If I was in the US it's what I'd order. I'm in Canada so I need to take in account exchange, service and shipping. Leaves me currently looking at local used slightly more industrial machines for the same price. I believe until you go 25 or 30 hp which equate to 15 plus thousand you will need to use cut strategies regardless if you spend 2 on Hurricane or 10,000 on a brand x system.

JM where are you located?

While I admit this is meant to be about machines.. How would you approach a really simple job as this. (if cpp can do angled cabinets like this I recant my post) (but I still need something to show the customer to make the sale so cpp is not one stop shopping)
I can draw this in a software package from a customer sketch in 5 minutes. Corner cabinets are on some random angle based on fixed dimensions from the space and customer requirements. This is not a rocket science project. I really really really dislike the idea of having to draw this or type in dimensions twice.

Ps this software is 1/10 the cost of something like cv and kcd.

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John,
I am about a 45 minute drive north or Toronto in Barrie.

The duty, exchange, and shipping really wasn't that bad. It was still 10s of thousands less than a comparable machine bought in Canada.

Jonathan,

I don't understand why you wouldn't like eCabinets. Here is the Island on your website ready to cut on the ShopBot or a Thermwood.
You can also do angular or circular work.

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My largest question, is anyone making cabinet parts efficiently on these machines. -

This is up to you, and what and how you implement the software and system in your shop to do so.

We run a huge piece of iron and crank out the square boxes daily, and the widgets and the wall systems and ...............

Maint or trouble free ? I would think that with enough training and proper maint. this can happen, but you are really going to have to avoid crashing the head. Or, make sure lubrication and cleaning is on an adhered to schedule.

Several years ago I called Camaster and asked the same questions, the answer was it can produce for a day or two depending on the complexity and have enough to build for three or four.

Jim does an incredible job sharing his knowledge and showing the capacity of one of his machines with vectric on the reception wall- no small feat until you make a few. He shares his short cuts and reduces the learning curve greatly.

I would venture to say the Camasters, Shop Sabre, Shopbot and the Boss Routers are here to stay and can produce like the big iron, And, you are the limiting factor.

Our machine is a 2 shift machine and there are times that we run it that way, but it takes 2 from the office and 1 on the floor for it to be efficient.

Drills- get one, you will not regret it. 35k delivered ? Maybe used........

"My largest question, is anyone making cabinet parts efficiently on these machines."

the Best Answer I have is this "Far better than I have done before"

we have a saying on the CAMheads forum, "When we elevate others , We elevate ourselves" I get thanked and asked often about how kind it is to create and support forums,,,,,, """Hog bull malarkey"" is my Answer. Basically I was a guy in a small shop trying to eek out the American dream of doing what I wanted too. Sitting alone in a Cold Garage shop is a lonely feeling and with no Money one has limited options. I always attended the IWF and read all the magazines but when I learned the Internet and some digital methods things began to change

Our society and capitol methods are Dog eat Dog and stepping on others is called "Competion" and "Just Business".... I was taught to be far more ethical in my dealings and got screwed a few here and there as a result. but I did set out to prove we as Small Cabinetmakers and trades are not Slaves to the system, By being a member of Woodweb since the mid 90s and eventually creating the machine support forum. I learned from Woodweb and built myself and Army of teachers. so if any one thinks I did this for Kindness think again,, it was my way of competing and out competing the Arrogant and Lazy !

you can see how My Wife feels about the CNC from the Photo we have on the fridge !

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I have been waiting for the opportunity to post this comparison. But seven years ago I bought a new Thermwood CS 45. During this time I have seen others buy and sell a 3 or 4 entry level machines. If you look at the cost of setting up and learning I,m sure the cost far exceeded the cost of a new Thermwood My Thermwood still runs like the day I brought it home. It went six years without one problem, that could not be fixed over the phone. I have never needed a technician. I broke the spindle last year and Thermwood had a new one setting in my driveway in less than 24 hours. That right you can buy cheaper machines, but not better. We all know, you get what you pay for. Search the forum you won't find anyone complaining about their Thermwood.

I don't hear anyone complaining about their camasters or boss routers either. I talked to a guy in tex. who had a boss router and he said he had never had a real problem with his seven year old router. I don't think that anyone has vouched for the longevity of a camaster or shopbot yet though. That is one question in my original post that anyone has yet to answer. Will a camaster stinger or prs alpha give me trouble free service under what ia anticipate to be medium use for more that five years. Again I have nothing at all against thermwood routers its just that they are out of my reach at the moment, and im not the kind of guy to take drastic financing measures. I don't know how the rest of your shops have been doing in past years, but last year and this year have been the first years in quite a while where we could say that it has been decent. We are doing better, but for how long I don't know. I hope this upswing holds out. So until I feel comfortable in that I don't want any large overhead hanging over me like a dark cloud.

My original Camaster 408 was built in 1998 I purchased it in 07 and upgrade the controller, it is still in use in a sign shop in FLA, the second my X3 is owned by Kickit kevin on the CAMheads forum and is inuse daily it is 6.5 years old. I sold it to buy the new ATC two years ago. last week i fried a hard drive, i had Backed up all my data and was back alive in a few hours.

The Stingers haven't been out that long to give a good answer. I have seen where they said to get an extra driver and motor along with some other spare parts if you are running them hard.