I know this is kind of deep into the technical abis.

I want to switch from my own software to using cabinet vision for manufacturing custom closet parts. I am too busy trying to run a growing company and want to get out of the software writing business.

We had one last issue we had to overcome and CV could not figure out how to fix it.

Here is my problem:
With my cad system we nest all parts so the "front edge of the parts" are all facing the same direction. As most parts get only the front side edgebanded, they face the edgebander. We feed off the cnc output conveyor directly into the bander. I only put parts on the nest in 2 ways - regular as above or rotated 90 degrees CCW. We don't rotate sides because of line boring. Rotation is noted on the labels so we know how to orient the label.
The label has the edgebanding instruction so this is kind of important.

CV will put parts in every direction. Half the sides face 180 degrees away from the bander.

1. I am not sure how the operator would understand how to orient the labels.
2. We would have to rotate half the 8' sides 180 degrees to put the part in the bander. As this is a compact work cell where there is occasionally a 2nd person will be dropping of stuff, it seems highly unsafe to me. Not to mention the chance of hitting the edgebander all the time.
3. Super inefficient. Think lean.
4. After we install our new Rover A we will be doing about 10 sheets an hour 10 hrs per day. I don't want to add any unneeded heavy lifting for my guys.

I have not worked much with dxf files. I am old school in my software and go direct to gcode.

Is there some info in a dxf that gives orientation?

I am assuming the the issue is in the original generation of the dxf.

The only way I can think to fix this is to export all parts from CV to dxf files.
Write a program to modify the the dxf default orientation of the parts and then re import them in the S2M center for nesting and code generation.

Any help would be most appreciated.
I want my weekends and evening back.
and the CV sales guy deserves his commision for all the work he did to get us this far! :-)

How are you nesting?

Try nesting as if they have a grain or with no rotation. That will be start.

If that gets them all in the same direction you can play with the X0Y0 location to make them face away from you.

grain will not work.
80% of what we cut is white.
By eliminating rotation on all the other parts we would lose about 3% to 4% yield.
Besides turning 90 degrees is not the real problem its the 180 degree rotation that kills us.

Is there an orientation in the dxf?

I'm not an expert but I suspect that all parts are drawn with 0,0 in the same place.

Open a bunch and a CAD program and you'll see it pretty easily.

What are you nesting with?

How can you ID parts that need to banded?

Nesting with Cabinet Vision S2M.

Yes, it appears they are nesting with 0X to the left and flipping the Y when boring from the other side.
If they would lock Y0 and flip X it would work fine.
You can't lock both X and Y.
One has to float.

They don't seem to want to put the effort in fixing it. I am trying to see if there is anything I can do to fix it.

Problem is even though I am speaking to technical folks they just don't really understand whats going on.

we have 2 strikes against us.
1. We do closets - the red headed step child of the cabinet industry.
2. It's fairly new to have a work cell like ours working from an output conveyor straight into the bander.
Most upload to a cart then take it to the bander.
We are too lean minded to work like that.

See if you can tell the machine where 0,0 is. If you can make it right back on the machine instead of front left things should work out how you want.

0,0 is not the problem.
Its the flipping of the parts when drilling from one side or the other.

If you look a part like a side:

This is the way they are now nesting a part bored from the right side.
Y
---------------------------------------------------------
| |
| | Good
-*---------*-----------*---------------------------------------- X
X0 Y0

When they are boring from the left side they lock the X0 and flip the Y.
Y
-*--------*--------*------------------------------------
| |
| | Bad
----------------------------------------------------------------- X
X0 Y0

What needs to be done is boring left, hold the Y and flip the X
Y
---------------------------------------------------------
| |
| | Good
--------------------------------------*-----------*----------*- X
X0 Y0

The 3 * show the back of the piece.

Ok, so they're mixing them up.

Can you set the nesting parameters by part?

I.e. this part 180, this part any etc.?

Once you figure out the nesting logic, you may have to cheat the drawings.

No such nesting parameter.
CV say they cant change it.
My only chance is to export the dfx, recognize the ones I need to flip and do it in the dxf file. Then reimport.

At least that's all I can come up with.

Will it nest properly if you use grain?

If so, the 3 or 4% extra material may be worth it.

Or don't use CV.

I use Cabinet Sense for cabinet parts - Paul may be able to create drawings that nest the way you want.

What nesting program will you be using on the Rover?

Grain no help.
I was hoping to use CV now I am in limbo.

Choices are not good right now.

CV- Great manufacturing
Poor slow design in closets - wont put parts in correct orientation.

KCD - good design but poor manufacturing.
No flip operations to boring on back side.

Closet Pro - Awesome design - no manufacturing link. they have one to CV but it only passes 80% of the parts at this time.

In order to stay competitive I have chosen (forced) to use KCD for design and pricing.
Write my own CAM system. this has been working until recently as we have grown so much I need to spend my time managing the business not programing.

I guess there is nothing to compare to doing your own system that you can tweak to work like you want it to Not watered down so it fits the most shops posible.
Big slow to move software companies seem to be the bane of leading edge lean innovation.

Although I find it hard to think of not twirling 8 foot up to 35lb parts like a baton innovative. Just common sense.

I had to overcome about 10 things that I had to intervene in CV process to make it work for us. This was the only thing I can't seem to get around.

A cleitn of mine uses CV and it's a problem. He used to send me nested sheets but I didn't like them. Now he sends me zip files with all the individual pieces and I nest them.

I use Cabinet Sense for design - talk to Paul - I know he just did a lot of closet improvements recently.

He can export dxf's in a number of ways.

I use a couple of different programs to nest and use SheetCAM to cut. SheetCAM is about $200.00 but I run my 5X10 Biesse Arrow with a drill block with it.

Cabinet Sense will export to one of the Vetric programs for cutting etc.

Might be worth a look.

Also for fun, send me some files and I'll nest them on one of my programs and we can see what happens.

Hello Bob,

I use Enroute to nest DXF files from my cabinet software. It will import an entire batch of DXF parts then allow you to manually override the option to rotate parts.

I know Enroute supports CV. Could you send me a batch of files and I will see what I can do.

Thanks

Richard

We can manually change the parts 180 on CV nesting, but in high production, having to look at and change nests really slows us down. It really looks as if the problem is in the output of the dxf files.
I think the only way to fix it is to write a program to go into the dxf file recognize its it 180 off, fix it or be able to re import into a nest with a command to rotate it 180 degrees.

I can see why you would want to avoid that.

My cabinet software allows me to define multiple materials which use the same raw material. The intention being that thru could have different visual properties etc but get nested and cut together. In your situation thks can be used. I setup a cabinet and made 1 end panel a different material (Although the same raw material) when I output the DXF files I get 2 lists. This enables me to 1st import all of the end panels that my nesting software is rotating 180 degrees. I can control the rotation on all of these panels and lock it. It's fat avid foolproof as the sane change is applied to everything. Then I can import the 2nd list and let the software do what it wants. When I nest and generate code all parts are nested together as they here the same raw material.

Once I have made a cabinet with a different material for the side them I can save it to my catalogue for future use

I am not sure if CV and S2M have features like this... but it's worth asking. It maybe easier than getting them to change how it orients the DXF files.

Good luck!

Go into the help files of CV under System Parameters and find the EDGE parameter. It says "P2P machine", but I use it on my nesting machine for door ops and it works great. I think that and the "grain" feature combined will do what you want. I have to imagine that if you want all of your parts coming off the machine in 1 precise orientation, you're going to lose a lot more yield than letting the nester do its job with efficiency and relying on your operator to feed the part correctly.
Also, I think the stickers all go in the same orientation. There is a diagram that shows which edges get which type of edgeband so the guy knows how to feed it into the machine.
I have to ask, is a guy looking at the sticker and having to rotate a part periodically really THAT big of a time-suck? What if the part needs 2 banded edges?
One thing that was difficult for me when I started using CV was to accept that forcing the software to do everything "the way we've always done it", wasn't smart. Embrace the way the software works and alter a few of your protocols to adapt. In most cases you'll find it works out better.

Pdub, thanks for your insight. This is what I have been looking for. I am going to try what you have proposed.

I think you are missing the point on our orientation.
Rotating parts 90 degrees in one direction is not a problem. Now it's marked on our label.
180 degrees is the problem.
In closets we also have a lot of line boring so we usually don't rotate "sides" 90 degrees. We are now getting 85% yield or better on solid colors using this method.

While I understand what you are saying about going with the flow. I don't believe in that. Yes, I will try the way things are done standard. But in the end, if I get more efficient, I am going to do it my way.

How would you feel about investing $25,000 and end up slowing your line down? Not gona do it, nope. :-)

I feel with help from guys like you, I can push through and keep my line flowing.

Thanks!
Off to play with CV demo

Got it Bob. I guess in closets, you have a lot of long parts. Those would be more difficult to rotate.
I am certainly not suggesting you slow down or become more inefficient. Your investment should make you more profitable and I think it will. However, CV is a big and powerful tool that will likely change the way you do some things. Implementing something like that will invariably slow you down at first as you figure out how it integrates to your shop. Dunno about you, but my 1st months with my CNC were an exercise in patience! Now, I wouldn't trade it for the world.
Be patient and open-minded and your investment will pay off.
If you haven't used the CV forums yet, do so. There is a wealth of knowledge on there. I rarely use tech support because of it. There are also a lot of fresh ideas there that can have you thinking of better, more efficient ways to do what you do.
Good luck.

I will try the forums , don't know if I have access yet as I am still in demo mode.
I can't find the "Edge" Parameter you talked about. There are a bunch of _EDGnXX parameters. Is that what you are talking about?
When I generate just dxf I found all are indeed oriented correctly!
I am going to try to import into BNest and see what happens.

scroll down that list until you're past all of the parameters with an _underscore in front of them. Then alphabetical.

OK I found the parameter.
Not sure how I missed it.

Where can I apply this?
Is it done in UCS?

UCS is your best bet for the future. You could assign the parameters to the individual parts and then save those cabinets, but that will be tedious and you will have to do it to every new cabinet you create.
You'll have to play around with each part to figure whether the value should be 1,2,3,4

No Joy.

I put it in the object tree in the part.
I tried all settings but it did not seen to make a difference. Not sure it that was the correct way of doing it.

Getting frustrated.

Anyone have CV and output dxf to biesse nest?

Right now that seems my easiest way.
Biesse says they can do what I want but the evaluation version of CV will not export Biesse dxf.

I know it's not an automatic answer, but a quick one: After you nest, below the nested part layout if you highlight a part and click the redo looking icon, that rotates the part 180. If there are only a few per job, wouldn't take long. I would venture a guess there is a UCS floating around the forums to take care of what you want automatically.

Hi Tom,

In our high production shop checking and messing with the nest is not an option.

Unfortunately I do not have access to the forum.

I know its a big ask but could someone check the forum for me?

I have been told by CV that EDGE parameter does not work on Nests.

I am ready to spend 25K and the sales guys don't know who to turn to.

We may have to turn to using BNest to gen code. It would be a bit clunky but would work. Just an extra $3600 :-( for Bnest.

There must be a way around this. They are also rotating 48" sides 90 degrees where we can't use the boring block on the 75 line bore holes.

It doesn't look like it's possible in CV, I did a quick search and found this response to a question:

There is no parameter that will allow you to force the program to nest the parts in a certain rotation.
_________________________________

Dan Powers | Support Technician

Try Mozaik, they have closets and I have used it a few times without any problems. You can rotate pieces once they are nested and before the g code is created and if you are doing only 10 sheets a day it would not take any time to rotate parts. You can ask them if you can have the parts placed on the sheet as you have requested and there maybe a simple way to do it but I do not know for sure. You can always request a "special program" written just for you but of course they will charge you for it but if you are to busy then why not pay them. Call them and ask about what you want and they will tell you up front what the cost will be for a special program. They charge a simple easy monthly fee so that even if you do not like it it will not cost thousands of dollars. I decided to try it because of the intial low cost, the drawing to machining is flawless, any problems you have are handled quickly and professionally, updates are free. I have never looked back, and I suggest that you should take a look at it as well. I know I sound like a salesman, but the truth be told I am just a satisfied customer which in the software jungle is something pretty rare! and I have been using various software since the late 1990's

It was 10/hour times 10 hours.
That needs to be automated.
The BiesseNest module may be the best option. You should be able to program the rotation on the way in to the nest.

Talked to Moziak.
Same issue.
I have other issues that are unique to our business model that it does not fit.
Very nice program though- great value.

Had a production meeting yesterday.
We have been implementing lean into our shop for while now.

The guys on the line don't what to flip them.
Going against all the culture we are trying to foster, I pushed them to try it "My way". It took a while to get them on board. They said they willing to try but the biggest concern was how they would know how to apply the label correctly.

Anyone using Label-It have an answer to that?
I may have to start a new thread.

use polyboard +knest ,can choose exactly how export and how rotate....