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Subject: Re: beam saw + point to point vs. nested CNC

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Message Thread:

beam saw + point to point vs. nested CNC

4/16/21       
David Shumway  Member

Website: http://www.jescopr.com

I have more work than I can handle and am considering upgrading to help keep up. The main machine at my shop is a scm 10' sliding table saw. I'm considering either a beam saw to do all the cutting and a vertical point to point cnc to do shelf wholes and etc. or a nested CNC to do both. I've always thought a CNC is too slow (compared to a table saw) but if it does everything maybe it's the way to go.


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4/16/21       #2: beam saw + point to point vs. neste ...
CRIS

A good CNC will process about 35 sheets in a 8 hr. day. which is app. 35 cabinets. cut bored and dadoed. you can also edge band while the machine is cutting.

4/16/21       #3: beam saw + point to point vs. neste ...
Karl E Brogger  Member

Website: http://www.sogncabinets.com

Unless you're very high volume, a flat table makes more sense to me.

A tablesaw will cut faster, but not by much, and depending on construction method you only handle the parts twice. Once as a sheet, once as parts coming off the router. CRIS' numbers are pretty accurate for my machine. If things go well I can do 40 sheets in a day. That's decks, partitions, ends, stretchers, nailers, and toe kicks. Mitres where needed. Pocket screws. Shelf holes. Hardware holes. Plus I get a few minutes of free time each sheet while it's running to stare at the wall.

Nothing will touch a beam saw for speed when booking up five sheets at a time.

I don't cut all sheet stock on the router either. Backs, drawer bottoms, door panels are cut on vertical panel saw. Gang cutting when possible makes things go stupid fast.

4/16/21       #4: beam saw + point to point vs. neste ...
cabinetmaker

We smoke other shops with our flat table, but we Leaned out the shop to implement the automation the cnc provides, allowing the cell it’s located in be incredible efficient

Our process in drawing, field check and change order basis operations is sickening fast, so we really churn out the cases Course we got a big bander and autodoweler that can keep up

4/18/21       #5: beam saw + point to point vs. neste ...
Dan

The big question is how many sheets are you looking to process per day.

The biggest advantage a beam saw has is the ability to cut more than one sheet at a time. This is where the beam saw will shine.

Even so, cutting on a beam sam then p2p will require handling each part twice. If you get a traditional p2p with pods, there is also setup with moving pods for each different part.

I guess in the end, in most cases a flat tabe is the better solution.

4/18/21       #6: beam saw + point to point vs. neste ...
Hen Bob Member

Get both!! as long as you have the room.
I run a flat table and a beam saw.
As the other guys said you don't need to do everything on the router

4/19/21       #7: beam saw + point to point vs. neste ...
Rob Young  Member

Website: http://www.nutekmachinery.com

It is exciting to hear so many shops are so busy or anticipate being busy this year. The right beam saw paired with the right vertical machining center will out produce a nested based router, but I am not sure exactly how much production you are going to be doing and what is justified in your situation. If you want to share a little more information about the number of panels you would like to process a day, it would be helpful.

The machinery market and processes are constantly evolving to meet the needs of shops of every size. The options are countless with some distributors focusing on the cheapest machines they can find to import and sell to customers that are driven by price only to distributors like Nutek Machinery that have sought out heavy built machinery that will last a lifetime or until a machine shows up on the market that is so far advanced it does not make sense to hold on to older technology. Regarding vertical machining centers I have linked a video of the Kepler manufactured by Stema. This is one of the lines we bring in. The Kepler can even be configured for hardware insertion.

I would recommend getting a hold of a knowledgeable distributor that can walk you through your specific scenario and help you determine exactly which route is the best for you to take. It needs to be considered if you want to plan for even more growth than you have experienced and if you want to automate rather than adding additional employees (when you look at the cost of a qualified employee automation can be extremely attractive).

Kepler Vertical Machining Center

4/19/21       #9: beam saw + point to point vs. neste ...
jerry Member

We use a beam saw to get the sheets cut to near size then use a pod CNC milling center to do all the rest.

4/19/21       #10: beam saw + point to point vs. neste ...
cabinetmaker

Jerry -

Why are you not cutting to size and taking advantage of the time savings of sized parts moving through the work center ?

Rob -

Yes, but you are leaving out that all software is in place and the shops software is posting properly to each machine or labels are affixed to scan the part (all do able) but it is a lot of work All software must be in place

4/19/21       #11: beam saw + point to point vs. neste ...
David Shumway  Member

Website: http://www.jescopr.com

Ok, so a little more information; My shop is currently only 2,500 sqft. A beam saw is an overkill and way to big. How many panels do I currently process? It's only me and a helper 1/2 the time and just me the other half. I don't think I process more than 100 sheets a month. It might be a lot less but the list of clients are waiting an average of 6 months to a year for me and it is quite a long list. I have a friend close by that is about to retire and has offered to help with the setup. He has (and recommends) the shopsabre nested machine paired with a boring machine. He is quite successful and would be available to help. So I'm considering that as an option.

4/19/21       #12: beam saw + point to point vs. neste ...
Jim Sherrod Herron

I own a decently productive 2 man shop
750k in sales/yr in frameless and inset cabinetry, doors, and dovetail drawer boxes all in house including install.
I run a Striebig vertical typically ripping and end cutting two sheets at a time and boring for assembly, line boring and hardware on a Weeke BP60 pod and rail
Horizontal boring is done on a Maggi 23 spindle borer for screw assembly.
The Striebig is much faster than a sliding panel saw for cutting rectangular parts (I had an SCMI slider that I NEVER liked ) which comprise 99% of the work processed.
It is obviously much slower than a beam panel saw, but for my volume a huge step up from the slider and much safer in my opinion.
Might be some middle ground to contemplate.
I don't think two men can fully utilize the capacity of a beam panel saw and point to point...simply not enough labor standing in front of it.
Interesting thread though.

4/20/21       #13: beam saw + point to point vs. neste ...
jerry Member

We do cut most to size but there times when we need to do other edge profiles

4/20/21       #14: beam saw + point to point vs. neste ...
Dropout Member

I'm biased because I tend to collect machines.

We're primarily a CNC house.

Had 1 5X10 Biesse Arrow. Covered all our needs.

At an auction 18 months ago picked up a panel saw and a little Rover 20. Can't figure out how we managed without them.

Last fall we inherited an old Andi 5X10 we have it permanently set up for 4X8 because we do a lot of plywood.

Can't figure out how we managed without that one either.

Same with the dowel machine we picked up from a guy who was cleaning out his shop.

There are times when I'm alone in the shop with 2 CNC's running long jobs (45 minutes or more), the panel saw cutting lots of small pieces (1" strips from the long way on a 4X8 sheet) and doweling on the dowel machine.

Machines create opportunities.

4/24/21       #15: beam saw + point to point vs. neste ...
Derrek

I have run both set ups and currently running a new Anderson 5x10 nested base machine.
Beam saw takes up a lot of space. Yes you can cut 3 high with it, but that doesn’t mean you actually increase output. You can take a big stack of material and creat a bunch of small stack really fast, that you then have to move around. It’s also can become very slower to cut single pieces of individual sizes. Lastly you still have to take that part to another machine or 2 to complete the part.
PTP is nice, but now you are handling individual parts again, not to mention moving pods around to fit those parts that also result in running into those pods. Size wise it’s about the same as you will have with nested base. The only benefit for most of us is it can do horizontal drills no of items where a nested base can’t in less you creat fixtures and have a drill head that can do it. Many ptp come with factory installed software that allow you to run a single part from machine. If your doing this you can spend a lot of time programming parts not running parts
Nested base requires software of some type to work effectively. When your software is set up properly, all operation happen on that machine. We typically run a 4x8 sheet with lots of line boring and other operations on it in 5-8 minutes. We push off onto a roller table right now, my previous machine had auto load and unload, see the video in my other thread on cheap loading. When the finished sheet is pushed off the operator has 5-8 minutes to label, edgeband and sort the parts. When our parts come off the Vander they are ready for assembly (your construction method may vary). We ran 60 sheets yesterday and 50 the day before with 2 guys in the shop. A router doesn’t produce huge stacks of equipment nfinished goods in big batches, they roll off the line at a steady manageable pace and go right through the bander
I originally thoughtt I would keep my beam saw when I went nested base. 5 days after we started I had it for n the market and it was gone a few weeks later.
After the fact I did a time study. With beam saw PTP set up an average job had us touching parts 39 times and nested base we touch them 13 times. Your results may vary! One downside is you generate 3-4 times as much sawdust 1/8” saw blade vs 3/8 or 1/2” router tool and we had to adjust some sizes of parts for best yield

If you are serious, feel free to message me and I can share more

Good luck

5/7/21       #16: beam saw + point to point vs. neste ...
Scott

I would say in your case, just get a nesting cnc, it can cut and machine all shelf and hardware holes. It will exceed your demand by a mile.
When you decide to multiply your shop and people by at least 10 times, then you can look at a beam saw and a vertical cnc along with a dedicated dowel machine and case clamps, etc.

5/7/21       #17: beam saw + point to point vs. neste ...
Jeff

A beam saw and a vertical cnc( not a point to point where you move pods) will blow the doors off a nesting CNC every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Production shops don’t handle material over and over, they have conveyors moving the material.

It is pointless in my opinion to even consider for a small shop. This is for big production shops where you are cranking out 100’s of boxes every week. Truck loads of sheet goods are coming in every week.

Like others said a nested cnc will be great for you, it will do all your cabinet parts plus you can expand into other things like mdf doors, curved mouldings, inlays for glass doors , some carving, the scope of work will be endless for you.

 

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