Okay some machines have linear tool changer's and some rotary what are the advatage's? i would love to hear some opion's. I would assume on linear the machine has to go back to home postion to change tools, just not sure if there would big time saving, This our first cnc purchase and want to be clear on some thing's i feel like i'm going to get better info from the end user rather than a salesman.. with them somtimes you just need to read between the line's. we have been looking at shope saber and thermwood,both machine's have 12hp spindal's. also the shop sabre ipm is 2100 vs thermwood say's 3500, how important is that number? providing most tooling will not even come close to that. I talked to someone that knew someone using the shope sabre IS Model really slow taking taking 8-10 hrs to cut and dado 15 cabinet box's and drawer's. I know the more operations they run the longer it take's. We build 90 percent face frame cabinet's and some frameless. i just dont want to spend that kind of money to find out 1 man on a table saw can do it faster , but then there are help shortage we are all dealing with, All thou machine will show up on time everyday. any opion's would be greatly appreciated.

Ride-a-long/carousel type changers save a lot of time with the machine not having to run to a fixed tool changer rack. They of course add complexity and moving parts, but they are much faster. In my experience what you will find is when you start knocking out sheets fast you start focusing on 10 seconds here, 15 seconds there, to go faster and faster.

There is no way either of those machines takes 8-10 hrs to run a 15 box job. Not possible unless the shop has some ridiculously ridiculous machining details or is running painfully conservatively. And there is no way you will ever have a man outrun the machine. If anything you could have your man cutting rectangular parts with no machining (shelves, decks, stretchers) on a saw while sheets are running on the CNC but more than likely there will be no time for that. He will be busy the entire time processing, loading, unloading, labeling, etc.

Your rapid numbers are definitely an indicator of the machines speed. As you say, your never going cut at those number but they indicate more speed. Every little move you can run faster is just faster.

That being said, in my opinion you have to evaluate what a realistic quantity of sheets per day you will run on average. I have a fixed position changer (rear, 10 tools), no drill block, and my average sheet on cabs is probably in the 6 minute range for standard cabs. Thats an average number between sheets with large parts and not a lot of drilling running in the 3-5 minute range, and some sheets with a lot of drilling and a lot of small parts running way up in the 8-11 minute range (those your wanting to gouge your eyeballs out).

But in the end at the six minute average, with probably half that to clear and re-load, you may as well say 7 sheets an hour, about 50 sheets a day.

I will personally in my business never have a need to run 50 sheets a day, 5 days a week and while the speed gain of a ride along carousel, multiple drill blocks, sweep, auto load/unload, would be heaven, I dont have the need or desire for growth to justify the investment in cash, real estate, etc.

In the end my input would be to quantify the type of work you intend to do with the machine, and try to forecast what your anticipated production quantity needed per hour/day/week is out of the machine.

In my experience with the fixed ATC the only thing I would wish for would be more than 10 tools (a second 10 tool rack would be nice) and possibly a drill block but honestly for my shop even the drill block is not something I miss having. The more tool want is because we do a lot of varied work not just cab sheets and it would be a luxury to have 20 tools chucked and ready at all times. If I were running my 50 sheets a day and still had more sitting back not getting run it would be completely different but I have only a hand full of times had a need to run 250 sheets a week and they werent cabinet jobs.

You really just need to establish your budget, your production need, and start battling it out from there in my opinion.

PS
Make sure your budget includes all the ancillary stuff outbound of the machine. For instance one other massive want on my end would be impeccable dust collection which pretty much speaks to a machine with a rolling house/enclosure around the spindle. Can often be picked up by an 8" or multiple large DC drops and usually incorporates a pretty aggressive air blast to clear chips. This of course means suitable DC and compressor.

Its a slippery slope.

Funny. We were just talking about this at lunch today.

I don't think a ride along carousel saves much. A good portion of the time, the spindle is still braking when sitting in front of the tool rack. Maybe they run a more aggressive braking routine with a ride along? I don't know.

My theory is that manufacturing is binary. You are either producing, or consuming. The grey area between is miniscule. So when your machine is running a program, it's only producing when the tool is in the material. When moving between operations in the sheet, you still have vacuum, dust collection, amd the compressor running at full draw. The spindle isn't using much power chopping air. So you've got all that cost, but no production. My machines rapid move is about 2800ipm, and I'm glad it's not any slower.

Watch machines work, there's a few that I considered, that I would not be impressed with after having a cnc for a few years. Some finish an operation, then pause for what seems an eternity before heading to the next line of code or operation.

Thank's Mark for all the info you have provided, and i have factored in a dedicate dust collection. We already have a 25 hp screw compressor so air requiremnets will not be an issue , we will need to add a good air dryer.

Definitely need cool dry clean air.

I'd think about adding some filter system at the compressor as well for oil and particulant.

My shop was pre-plumbed by the last owner with 1" black iron pipe. I opted for compressor/aftercooler/tank drain etc... into Hankinson coalescing oil filter - Hankinson refrigerated air dryer - then at critical drops we installed drips and ran an additional filter at the reg. to catch any rust/trash that blew down the line. The thought was if any rust made it to the drop it would fall into the drip, second line of defense for anything that made it past the drip is the filter/reg. 175 psi mains regulated at each drop.

Probably should have just re-plumbed the whole space but with everything else it was one thing off the list.

I started from scratch with aluminum pipe. I'm a big fan of that stuff

Before you establish your budget, you first need to establish exactly what you need. $50K is a lot to spend if does not give you what you really need. You want to get something for your money. If you establish what your needs are first and find you cannot afford a machine that performs at that level wait. Do not throw good money at a machine that really does not give you anything.

How many sheets a day do you believe you need to process? There are quite a few factors equally and even more important than the rapid travel speed to determine if a machine is "fast".

The majority of the time your new machine is powered up should be spend cutting, not in rapid travel mode.
What is the max linear feed rate for cutting? I have seen some extremely cheap machines boast they have a fast linear cutting speed, but the acceleration/deceleration of the axis is so slow they burn bits up in the corners when trying to cut that fast.

How many vacuum zones are there on the table? How many and what size vacuum pumps do you have? If you cannot hold the parts, you cannot cut them accurately.

A twelve horsepower spindle is appropriate for cutting around 800 inches a minute or less.

What will you use for programming software? This is another cost to owning a machine. Some machines come with an onboard cam program while others require you to purchase your own.

How expensive are the parts and service for the machine you purchase? You will find most of the machinery suppliers have a large number of proprietary parts and their business model is to sell the machine then make money on spare parts and service.

Purchases like this one will shape your company’s future so make certain you are working with a company you feel you can trust.

I am more than happy to share my experience that I have gained over the years if you contact me.

I’ll share my 2 cents worth.
Speed of machine is on important and you don’t want a dog of a machine that’s for sure. The difference between ride along and linear tool holder at the end of the table isn’t much. It will be magnified the more tool changes you have per sheet of material.
The most important thing is don’t under buy.
Essentials
Good hp motor to cut at a good speed
Drill block, bigger the better
Tool changer.
Good vacuum.
This last one will double the out put of a CNC- automatic push off and sweep arm. Our original machine was a manual unload machine and we would take 6-10 minutes to unload and label a sheet of parts. The machine is sitting idle during this and no amount of rapid travel time can make up for this. We are running an Anderson Selexx that we manually load and have push off onto table. We are 20 seconds between the next sheet starting. Last week we had a sensor go bad on a pin and machine wouldn’t push off. It was crazy how much time it takes to pull parts and clean table.
Last, the CNC is only one tool in the system. You want to be integrated with your design software so you can design and output to machine and you want to have a good system of handling materials for the type of work you do. A scissor lift for loading materials on to CNC the edebander as close as possible to the off load and a way of organizing parts for assembly.
A proper set up will reduce the number of people/time you need to complete projects. It’s an investment that will pay dividends all day long

How to easily load CNC on the cheap