CNC

You are not logged in. [ Login ] Why log in
(NOTE: Login is not required to post)

Vacuum not enough?

10/8/14       
Akram Member

Hi,
I Have a Becker 10 HP in good condition,
CNC omnitech selexx 4X8
the problem is the small parts are flying all over the place,
i have a new rubber seal, spoil board surfaced, all vanes still in good condition according to the Becker user manual and all vacuum filters are clean,
the attached pressure gauge is enough for holding my projects?
the table size is 4X8
Omniteh cnc

please give an opinion as why parts not holding.
Thank you.


View higher quality, full size image (1000 X 750)


View higher quality, full size image (1000 X 750)

10/8/14       #2: Vacuum not enough? ...
Mike

Assuming that your tooling is in good shape, can you describe your cutting strategy? Are you using an onion skin method on your small parts, or a return onion skin? How about cutting order? Try to arrange cutting order so that the part is connected to as much panel as possible before being cut free. In other words, you don't want the part already separated from the nest while removing an onion skin. Can you post code so one of us can take a look at what you are doing. Also, what tool is doing the work. Also software generating the code. Some cabinet packages do a horrible job with start points and cutting order. I won't name them, but they know who they are.

10/8/14       #3: Vacuum not enough? ...
james mcgrew Member

I have to use a Part cut strategy as I have a 15 hp regen, does a great job and unless I want to add more I cut small parts first (most vac) and onion skin to .03 then all cut thru on last pass, yes time is money but so is a Vacuum !!

you could add one and spilt your zones

10/8/14       #4: Vacuum not enough? ...
Snaglpuss

10 hp on a 4x8 doesn't seem like a lot of pump to begin with.
I am using 40hp on a 4x10 table and there are times I have to be carefull how I cut parts.

Are you cutting your small parts in two pecks down ( say leave 1/32" for the final pass) ?

Are you cutting the little pieces first on the sheet then the bigger stuff?

Is your tooling sharp?

Are you using downspiral bits on small stuff?

Make sure the bottom side of the sheet to be cut is clean with no dust on it.

Worse comes to worse on tiny problem parts you can "onion skin" as the other post said. Leave 1/64" or a little less in the depth, break the parts apart and trim them with a trim router by hand.

10/8/14       #5: Vacuum not enough? ...
Will Williamson  Member

Website: http://www.willmade.com

When you pull the valve out to take the parts off, what does the gauge read? What is the pressure when it is closed ?

When you go to remove your parts and pull out the handle you are closing the valve and your pump should read the maximum pressure that the pump can produce.

Now push the handle in and open the valve and compare that pressure. This should tell you how much pressure you are losing. Due to spoil board and gasket vacuum loss.

apply packing tape around the permeter of you spoil board and see if the pressure increases. that will determine if your gasket is leaking.

Next seal the edge of your spoilboard with wood glue.

One more test, cover the whole spoil board and edge with plastic and look at the pressure.

Next, what material are you using for the Spoil Board. I personally do not use the ultra lite board for this.

As fall is coming on and the heat in the shop is turned on I've seen spoil boards warp and curl up around the edges to the point they will not seal.

I use a 18 Hp Becker on my 5 x 10 table seldom ever, have a problem and when I do, I follow the above procedure to determine the cause.

Good Luck Will

10/8/14       #6: Vacuum not enough? ...
Bill

We have 2 10hp pumps on a 4 x 8 table and we get over 20 on the gauge. If I saw 15 I would be concerned so yes I believe you do not have enough.

10/8/14       #7: Vacuum not enough? ...
Will Williamson  Member

Website: http://www.willmade.com

The 18 hp Becker is designed to hold 22 inches all day so when I see 15 on my gauge I know I'm losing vacuum somewhere

10/8/14       #8: Vacuum not enough? ...
Akram Member

Website: http://www.americanvisioncabinets.com

Thank you for all responses,
i have only one Vac at 10 HP.
the pressure gauge stuck at this reading and not moving up or down.
i really did not pay any attention until i noticed the holding problem.
Bill, you have two of 10HP and reading 20, i guess one vac at 10HP with 15 reading still not enough? what is the minimum reading for 4X8 table?
i checked all, new pressure gauge, Vac hose still 3 month old, spoil board Reg MDF and edgetaped , new table gasket, vanes around 70% new.
compression 1/2 drill bit.
will start using onion skinning strategy anw will see.
Thank you very much for the response.

10/8/14       #9: Vacuum not enough? ...
Snaglpuss

You might want to try ultralite MDF like Trupan for your spoilboard.
If not available in your area you could try regular cheap particleboard with the faces skimmed off, this works too but not as nice or simple like Ultralite.

10/8/14       #10: Vacuum not enough? ...
Phil B

10 hp should be more than enough if you are cutting laminate cabinets.

do you have a picture of your nest?

10/8/14       #11: Vacuum not enough? ...
Scott

What size are your small parts? Are you cutting full sheets and having problems?
How thick is your spoil board?
I run a 10 hp becker pump on a 4x9 SCM and very seldom ever have a problem. I cut drawer parts all the time and never have to onion skin. I run with a 1/4 inch spoil board, regular mdf. I never surface my spoil boards. Like mentioned make sure your material and spoil board are clean.

10/9/14       #12: Vacuum not enough? ...
Akram Member

Website: http://www.americanvisioncabinets.com

most of the flying parts are nailers or stretchers ( 3 to 4") width
my current spoil board now after couple or surfacing is 1/2 inch (was 3/4), and I'm using reg MDF not Ultra Light.
Becker sales rep will visit next week to give his opinion and check on the vac.
at the same time i do not know what is wrong with the pressure gauge, stuck at this reading and never moves, i bought it couple month ago.


View higher quality, full size image (1003 X 530)

10/9/14       #13: Vacuum not enough? ...
Danny Member

We bought a Woodtron some time back and had terrible problems with small pieces. It came with a crappy 80mm 3 blade cutter for surface planning that never really gave a great finish. I used a 6 blade diamond tip, 100mm tool we use on our Biesse to see if it made a difference and the quality of finish was vastly superior. We've since gone to an 8 blade 130mm diamond tip. Same great quality surface but planes faster. We now only lose the smallest of pieces.

10/9/14       #14: Vacuum not enough? ...
Mike

Put the start point near where the arrows in the image are, in the order specified, and even at 15inches of mercury, you should be able to hold those parts if you do a return onion skin and your chip load is reasonable.


View higher quality, full size image (1258 X 668)

10/9/14       #15: Vacuum not enough? ...
Jim Kolar

I have the exact same machine with 10 hp pump. Yes there are times I wish I had more. They do have the machine ready with the wiring and controls for a second pump on mine. Onion skin will solve a lot of your problems. We have cabinetvision so it automatically skins narrow pieces first and then cuts before larger pieces. It has made a huge difference and very little slippage. Had machine since 2007 and always used a 1/2 " spoil board.

10/10/14       #16: Vacuum not enough? ...
Bill

Akram, if you always make those parts in pairs you can tab them together.

We make very small parts and pair them that way. I just leave a .03 skin between them with a 1/2" of material plowed out. and then we have a small router table on the out feed table with a 3/8 flush trim bit.
We zip them in half as they are being removed from the table.

My guess is that you are getting more them 15 with a full sheet and as you cut and create leaks its drops. Another/more pump will just allow you to overcome more leakage. I would get a new gauge from Mcmaster and mount it remotely where it is easier to see, that is what we did. I started with 10hp and doubled it to 20. If you can swing more pump it is worth it. Between the time and material for remakes it made sense for my operation.

10/10/14       #17: Vacuum not enough? ...
randy Member

What is your altitude, this has a direct affect on how much vacuum you can pull. If your at 3500 ft or higher you probably need more vacuum.

11/14/14       #18: Vacuum not enough? ...
John Murphy

Website: http://www.allstaradhesives.com

CFM for air flow and PSI for small parts. There is no reason for your CNC Router not to be able to cut finished parts in a single pass regardless of the size or quantity or substrate. Please contact me and let's see if we can't give you some assistance.


Post a Response
  • Notify me of responses to this thread
  • Subscribe to email updates on this Forum
  • To receive email notification of additions to this forum thread,
    enter your name and email address, and then click the
    "Keep Me Posted" button below.

    Please Note: If you have posted a message or response,
    do not submit this request ... you are already signed up
    to receive notification!

    Your Name:
    E-Mail Address:
    Enter the correct numbers into the field below:
     

    Date of your Birth:



    Return to top of page

    Buy & Sell Exchanges | Forums | Galleries | Site Map

    FORUM GUIDELINES: Please review the guidelines below before posting at WOODWEB's Interactive Message Boards (return to top)

  • WOODWEB is a professional industrial woodworking site. Hobbyist and homeowner woodworking questions are inappropriate.
  • Messages should be kept reasonably short and on topic, relating to the focus of the forum. Responses should relate to the original question.
  • A valid email return address must be included with each message.
  • Advertising is inappropriate. The only exceptions are the Classified Ads Exchange, Machinery Exchange, Lumber Exchange, and Job Opportunities and Services Exchange. When posting listings in these areas, review the posting instructions carefully.
  • Subject lines may be edited for length and clarity.
  • "Cross posting" is not permitted. Choose the best forum for your question, and post your question at one forum only.
  • Messages requesting private responses will be removed - Forums are designed to provide information and assistance for all of our visitors. Private response requests are appropriate at WOODWEB's Exchanges and Job Opportunities and Services.
  • Messages that accuse businesses or individuals of alleged negative actions or behavior are inappropriate since WOODWEB is unable to verify or substantiate the claims.
  • Posts with the intent of soliciting answers to surveys are not appropriate. Contact WOODWEB for more information on initiating a survey.
  • Excessive forum participation by an individual upsets the balance of a healthy forum atmosphere. Individuals who excessively post responses containing marginal content will be considered repeat forum abusers.
  • Responses that initiate or support inappropriate and off-topic discussion of general politics detract from the professional woodworking focus of WOODWEB, and will be removed.
  • Participants are encouraged to use their real name when posting. Intentionally using another persons name is prohibited, and posts of this nature will be removed at WOODWEB's discretion.
  • Comments, questions, or criticisms regarding Forum policies should be directed to WOODWEB's Systems Administrator
    (return to top).

    Carefully review your message before clicking on the "Send Message" button - you will not be able to revise the message once it has been sent.

    You will be notified of responses to the message(s) you posted via email. Be sure to enter your email address correctly.

    WOODWEB's forums are a highly regarded resource for professional woodworkers. Messages and responses that are crafted in a professional and civil manner strengthen this resource. Messages that do not reflect a professional tone reduce the value of our forums.

    Messages are inappropriate when their content: is deemed libelous in nature or is based on rumor, fails to meet basic standards of decorum, contains blatant advertising or inappropriate emphasis on self promotion (return to top).

    Libel:   Posts which defame an individual or organization, or employ a tone which can be viewed as malicious in nature. Words, pictures, or cartoons which expose a person or organization to public hatred, shame, disgrace, or ridicule, or induce an ill opinion of a person or organization, are libelous.

    Improper Decorum:   Posts which are profane, inciting, disrespectful or uncivil in tone, or maliciously worded. This also includes the venting of unsubstantiated opinions. Such messages do little to illuminate a given topic, and often have the opposite effect. Constructive criticism is acceptable (return to top).

    Advertising:   The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not an advertising venue. Companies participating in a Forum discussion should provide specific answers to posted questions. WOODWEB suggests that businesses include an appropriately crafted signature in order to identify their company. A well meaning post that seems to be on-topic but contains a product reference may do your business more harm than good in the Forum environment. Forum users may perceive your references to specific products as unsolicited advertising (spam) and consciously avoid your web site or services. A well-crafted signature is an appropriate way to advertise your services that will not offend potential customers. Signatures should be limited to 4-6 lines, and may contain information that identifies the type of business you're in, your URL and email address (return to top).

    Repeated Forum Abuse: Forum participants who repeatedly fail to follow WOODWEB's Forum Guidelines may encounter difficulty when attempting to post messages.

    There are often situations when the original message asks for opinions: "What is the best widget for my type of shop?". To a certain extent, the person posting the message is responsible for including specific questions within the message. An open ended question (like the one above) invites responses that may read as sales pitches. WOODWEB suggests that companies responding to such a question provide detailed and substantive replies rather than responses that read as a one-sided product promotion. It has been WOODWEB's experience that substantive responses are held in higher regard by our readers (return to top).

    The staff of WOODWEB assume no responsibility for the accuracy, content, or outcome of any posting transmitted at WOODWEB's Message Boards. Participants should undertake the use of machinery, materials and methods discussed at WOODWEB's Message Boards after considerate evaluation, and at their own risk. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages it deems inappropriate. (return to top)


  • Forum Posting Help
    Your Name The name you enter in this field will be the name that appears with your post or response (return to form).
    Your Website Personal or business website links must point to the author's website. Inappropriate links will be removed without notice, and at WOODWEB's sole discretion. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    E-Mail Address Your e-mail address will not be publicly viewable. Forum participants will be able to contact you using a contact link (included with your post) that is substituted for your actual address. You must include a valid email address in this field. (return to form)
    Subject Subject may be edited for length and clarity. Subject lines should provide an indication of the content of your post. (return to form)
    Thread Related Link and Image Guidelines Thread Related Links posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should point to locations that provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related Link that directs visitors to an area with inappropriate content will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    Thread Related File Uploads Thread Related Files posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. Video Files: acceptable video formats are: .MOV .AVI .WMV .MPEG .MPG .MP4 (Image Upload Tips)   If you encounter any difficulty when uploading video files, E-mail WOODWEB for assistance. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related File that contains inappropriate content will be removed, and uploaded files that are not directly related to the message thread will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links, files, or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    Suction Cups, Vacuum Lifters, Vacuum Pumps from Anver Corporation ecabinet systems.com Thermwood Limtech Industries, Inc.