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Fiber Tear Out

1/11/16       
Dan Heagle Member

Just purchased my first CNC to get a handle on production back logs. With absolutely no experience using a CNC I'm hoping this site will help a great deal with my learning curve.

I have a Holz-Her Dynestic 4x8 with an 11kw router controlled by Cabinet Vision. I've been using solid carbide 1/2" up/down spiral cutters with suggested spindle speeds and travel according to the manufacturer when cutting 3/4" thick particle board with double sided melamine.

I was unaware of the fibers that pull out of the edges, even when the cutter is new (small but noticeable), and eventually get larger as the blade wears. This all while the melamine is still chip free. With this issue, I have to hand sand the edges prior to edgebanding if I use a PVC tape that is thinner than 0.8mm.

From my limited research I found that to solve this issue I would have to purchase an edgebander that has a pre-miller.

Question: Is purchasing a pre-miller my only option, or is there a better cutter available, or specific operations required when nesting?

Thanks in advance.

1/11/16       #2: Fiber Tear Out ...
Eric Olsen  Member

Website: http://www.erccabinets.com

You could change the way you program your parts by adding a final pass to the part. This has a tendency to not pull out the center of the core because your not trying to route in one pass. The time difference is nominal.
Another option is to switch to a 1mm edgebanding for the short term. the 1mm doesn't radiate the core issues your having.

1/12/16       #3: Fiber Tear Out ...
Paul S

I have found that this varies from mfg to mfg. last job I ran I used panel lam ..... Not happy at all there was a lot of tear out .... Plumcreek I had very little tear out. So I would try different mfg products and see what works best for you

1/12/16       #4: Fiber Tear Out ...
Gerry

Hi Dan,

I came up against the same issue when I started using the router. I think both of the suggestions above are accurate. I found that Panalam hardwood core tends to leave a rough edge. They have a softwood core that leaves a smoother edge. I have found I can get an acceptable edge on the hardwood core by using a double outline pass on all parts with the down side being the extra time and wear on cutters and machine.

I don't think you will ever get as nice an edge as you get off a good panel saw with a sharp blade.

Gerry

1/12/16       #5: Fiber Tear Out ...
Dan Heagle Member

I leave the skin on parts 6" and smaller before cutting through and they too leave the centre core pulled out. The cores with more hardwood left bigger voids in the centre which for me indicates large particles being pull out or just bad quality sheets. The sheets I've tried with more softwood in them didn't leave voids but the rough core is now my only issue.

Would any one know if the upgrade to a pre-mill on an edge bander be the solution to this problem? or is this just another process that will add to my dust collection bins?

1/12/16       #6: Fiber Tear Out ...
Eric Olsen  Member

Website: http://www.erccabinets.com

Yes an edgebander with a premill setup will eliminate this issue. You would either add to the part what the premill takes away or not stress the 32nd of an inch.

1/12/16       #7: Fiber Tear Out ...
Richard

Hi Dan,

When you leave the skin on the small parts do you also offset it away from the edge of the finished part? I usually find this does the trick.

I have also found that 3/8" cutters tend to be less aggressive on the core.

Never used a pre-mill on an edgebander so can't comment on that. Thicker edge tape does help.

Good luck!

Richard

1/12/16       #8: Fiber Tear Out ...
Leland Thomasset  Member

Website: http://www.cnc-cabinetparts.com

I am curious does a climb cut help out with this issue?

http://taghkanicww.com

1/13/16       #9: Fiber Tear Out ...
Dan Heagle Member

I'm leaning towards Eric's answer with the purchase of a new edge bander with the pre-mill. I'd rather use one solution to enable me to keep with a single pass to cut larger parts, pick and chose any sheet manufacture colors and tape thickness.

I've only worked with Holz-hers edge banders in my shop and the shop I learned this trade. I never had any major issues and I did all the service on them. I especially like the glue pucks that take less than 5 min to heat up.

Has anyone had experience with their 1054 Streamer? or any other brand that's similar is size with pre-mill? I'm limited with space and this model has all the options I would need.

I'm supposed to have an estimate by tomorrow for one.

1/16/16       #10: Fiber Tear Out ...
Gerry

Leland,
The climb cut does help but causes other issues, deflection of the cutter being one of them. What we do is a climb cut on the onion skin then a conventional cut on the finish pass. This works for us even using the hardwood core with the larger pieces.

I would be interested to know the pricing on the new bander also if that is allowed in a open forum?

Gerry

1/17/16       #11: Fiber Tear Out ...
Jason Scott

We had the same problem but have found that conventional cutting with a 3/8 3 flute tool gives us a much better edge than the 2 flute tools and you get the bonus of running much faster. We have been running 18,000 RPM and 29-30 Meters/minute on 3/4 melamine.

1/17/16       #12: Fiber Tear Out ...
jerry Member

We use a low helix 3 flute Vortex 1/2 inch bit and get good results.

1/17/16       #13: Fiber Tear Out ...
Gerry

Jerry,

We use Vortex bits also, could you give us a part number for the bit you are using?

Thanks,
Gerry

1/23/16       #14: Fiber Tear Out ...
Dan Heagle Member

In response to Gerry's question. The price came in at $46,800.00 Can. for a Streamer 1054 which has Pre-Milling, Auto Load Glue Cartrige, End Trim, Top/Bottom Trim, Scraper Unit and Buffing. Delivered and Installed.

They will give me 5k for my 1402HF off the price as a trade in.

1/23/16       #15: Fiber Tear Out ...
Gerry

We just completed a job using Stevens textured melamine that has a 1mm matching edge tape and it makes me think that using 1mm tape all the time would be an acceptable solution for me. If of course the tape you need is available in 1mm.

The pre-mill option got me thinking that if the edgebander milling was not perfect you could off size your parts or take them out of square? Not having used a bander with this option I don't know if it is a concern but it gets me thinking after using a router to get all the parts accurately sized I hesitate to introduce a process that would compromise that. I have seen one bander that by all accounts works well with the pre-mill option but the cost on it was closer to $500,000.00 Can. If the pre-mill works well in this price range it would allow you spend a lot less time worrying about edge quality coming off the router.

Thanks for getting back with the quote Dan.

Gerry

6/12/16       #16: Fiber Tear Out ...
Dan Member

I had the new pre-mill bander installed a few weeks ago. Tweaked it a bit after the techs were finished setting it up. Tape to board is near flawless.

I now cut all parts on the CNC to exact sizes (no reduction for tape thickness) and pre-mill the tape thickness on the edge-bander. This now removes all fibres that are protruding the edges and any skin left over by not going deep enough on the cuts. 0.5mm PVC tapes comes out smooth. The only issue left is if there's voids in the core, they show the indents. When exposed edges need to be perfect, I just add 0.5mm to my overall size of board and take off 1mm on the bander.

Very happy with the results.

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