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CNC Purchase

4/28/22       
Chris Eachus  Member

Website: http://www.tmcc-inc.net

our shop is looking to upgrade our cnc machine. currently we are looking at a Homag Centateq N-300 512 v12 concept 2 and a Biesse Rover A 1536 FT. I was wondering if anyone has any pros and cons on these machines. We use cabinet vision as our software and do a lot of 6 face nesting. any input would be greatly appreciated.

4/28/22       #2: CNC Purchase ...
Jason Axt

Website: https://www.scmgroup.com/en_US/scmwood/products/ma...

Chris,
A colleague of mine sent me your post and I wanted to reach out to you to discuss our Morbidelli and Routech CNC lines. I am the North East Regional Manager for SCM and actually live quite close by to your factory. I would be happy to stop in at your convenience.

Please feel free to call me at 770-862-8584 or email at jaxt@scmgroup.com. I do not check the forums so reaching out to me there would be best.

Best regards,
Jason

4/29/22       #3: CNC Purchase ...
JKL Machinery  Member

Website: http://www.jklmachinery.com

Hello Chris

Both good machines, each having their nuances in design and operational characteristics. Have you looked at Busellato... There are as you know many CNC machines in this category and all are equal in quality of design and build. Your final decision should be driven by service and support, this is what you are investing in.

Best of luck

4/29/22       #4: CNC Purchase ...
Karol l Member

Two years ago I was in the same place, trying to find the right CNC for my shop. After talking to a couple shop owners I decided to go with the Biesse. What I love about my rover K is the software, it’s very easy to learn especially since I didn't have any previous experience with CNC. I was able to run Biesse with no problem after a very short period of time. Customer service was always very help full and didn't take long to responded. Ive had my machine for almost 2 years now and I never had any issues. A year later I ended up buying the wide belt sender from Biesse, it’s getting greener in our shop. Very happy so far with all my purchases. It was the best choice I could have made for my business.

4/29/22       #5: CNC Purchase ...
Mike

Chris,
We use a different brand of CNC, but at the last Atlanta IWF show, we purchased a new Biesse edgebander. Service and support have been horrible. Not sure how that translates to the CNC router side, but I would ask users how the service has been.

4/29/22       #6: CNC Purchase ...
Scott Gibson Member

Website: momentumwoodworks.com
We've had the Biesse Rover A 1531 running Cabinetvision going on 9 months now with sweep and auto-unload. Fantastic machine. Before that we had a Biesse Rover S 1224 FT with a smaller bed. That was a workhorse before out-growing it. One of the great things about Biesse is the availability to get parts overnighted. We had to replace the fan on top of our first Biesse and the part was here the next day!! Works great with 6th face nesting. With CV there really isn't much of a need to get to know B-Solid, other than just the basics.
4/29/22       #7: CNC Purchase ...
Rob Young  Member

Website: http://www.nutekmachinery.com

Chris- It’s exciting to upgrade machinery. I worked for years as a maintenance supervisor and a maintenance manager, and several other roles I’ll mention. During the times I worked for production facilities I loved working alongside operation managers and production supervisors to locate the best machinery for our company. I’ll share a very logical approach I took to buying machinery that never failed me and a method for comparing competing machines that helped me determine the proper solution for our needs.
1. Budget was never discussed until I first determined which machines would actually provide the solution we were looking for. The worst possible mistake you can make when purchasing a machine is to determine the price before you understand what is needed to accomplish your goals and solve your current issues. Machine distributors were required to provide the quote with everything but the price. When it comes right down to it if the machine you purchase doesn’t do what you need it to do, you just threw away a large chunk of money to purchase a new machine and you really didn’t get anything in return.
2. If a salesperson brought up budget before they had the proper understanding of the solution we needed or prior to me asking for the price they were out of consideration. If you tell a salesperson, you have $125K for your new machining center line I can promise you they will have a machine in the range you specified. The problem with this is you often end up with a machine that simply isn’t the one you needed. A salesman that is truly looking out for your best interest will first determine what product you really need and if after presenting the product to you the determination is made that you can’t afford the solution they are offering, they will either discount the machine to get to a price you can afford, if this is possible or bow out of the sale.
Along with working for production companies in the role I described I also spent close to 20 years as an independent technician working on just about every brand and any type of woodworking machinery. I have repaired over 20 different brands of CNCs including the two you are already considering. I have worked in hundreds of companies, and it has been an all to common experience to find business owners purchasing machines that simply weren’t properly suited for their needs. Salespeople don’t always know what they don’t know and often the only time a salesperson gets dirty is if they accidently bump into a piece of machinery on your shop floor.
To determine if machines meet your needs and to compare different brands, create a spreadsheet with the header in row one and list each of the brands you are considering beginning in column two. In column one beginning in line two list the important specifications and features that will determine which machines will provide the solution you are seeking. This will allow you to weed out all of the brands that won’t accomplish the goals you have. After you weed out the brands that don’t meet your needs, you can ask for pricing from the salespeople you are working with. The price may now weed out more, but it is always worth looking at the brands side by side to see if a more expensive machine may be justified because it is capable of performing above the competitors and allow you more growth.
My philosophy is to cut and drill for speed and accuracy, this will decrease your cost to manufacture your product, and to finish and edgeband for quality, this will raise the value of your product.
Important specifications to consider for your new CNC would be Controller type, rapid travel speeds, vectorial speed, linear cutting speeds, axis acceleration/deceleration (this is far more important than most people realize), spindle brand and size, number of vacuum zones, number of tool change positions, Z axis height, ease of use, number of proprietary parts, and several more I would be happy to share with you if you want to reach out to me. In fact, I already have a spreadsheet made I can share with you.
As you go through this process, I would also ask you to consider Nutek Machinery as you look to upgrade and reach out to me to talk about the features that set brands apart. As a technician I purposefully sought out machine manufacturers that specialize in the machine types they build, not the typical, we have every machine under the sun that are often all OK but that’s about all they are, OK. I wanted experts in the machines type they manufactured that do that one thing better than the majority of other companies doing it. I looked for machines that were heavy built, dependable, didn’t repeat the same design flaws I noticed on other brands, had the highest production efficiency, and produced the highest quality parts in the industry. I have no doubt you will find a huge number of brands in the same price point but when you start really comparing the machines, you will find the price point is often the only thing in common.
Nutek Machinery and the dealers that are working with us are doing things differently than the other guys and basing our recommendations on real life production scenarios that we have experienced and providing solutions that result in long term trusting relationships.

https://nutekmachinery.com/machining-centers.html

4/30/22       #8: CNC Purchase ...
Scott

I can’t comment on most of the machines mentioned as, I have only owned one machine in my life, but my experience with SCM service would be described pathetic at best.

5/2/22       #9: CNC Purchase ...
Derrek

Website: http://closet Dr.com

I’ve had 2 Biesse machines and now currently have an Anderson Selexx. The quality of the Anderson is unsurpassed. The ease of using the machine is much better than my last Biesse. The Italians are trying to simplify things through complication and some things are just flat out frustrating.
Anderson sweep arm set up is simpler and better than anything I have seen. The controller is a Fanuc, the largest supplier of robotic controls I believe in the world and they have 30+ service centers in US. Pm and I’ll be glad to talk and answer any questions

5/3/22       #10: CNC Purchase ...
Quicktrim

I second what Derrick said.
I run an Anderson Stratos and it has been a very good straight forward machine to run and understand.

Since most of us run CV , Mozaik , and another CAM package for non cabinet components, I don't see the need for the operating systems such as wood wop and b solid.

But I have never used those systems so perhaps there are great things about them that I am in aware of.

I will say that I had no prior cnc knowledge, and have had a total of five hours of phone training from Anderson specialist and have been up and running for a few years now , when a part fails or goes bad I can usually get it off the shelf from Bosh Rexroth or directly from Anderson.

They don't have any local techs here in Colorado, but that has not been am issue for me so far.

5/6/22       #11: CNC Purchase ...
Acctek  Member

Website: https://www.acctekgroup.com/index.html

Our newly upgraded CNC router machine with tool changer,
Mach3 Controller
We use Ethernet interface controller card, the program is installed on a computer connected to the control machine.

5/10/22       #13: CNC Purchase ...
Dan Bean Member

We just had a Biesse Rover A 1531 FT installed. It has been a week since the completed install. It has had new issues emerge almost daily and I am growing concerned with their desire to get the machine running properly. I don't have much experience with it yet but I am beginning to suspect we made a mistake.

5/10/22       #14: CNC Purchase ...
Mike

Dan,
That is my experience with the edgebander. I hope you are patient because the only urgency to get things fixed will be on your part. Took over a year for us to get most things under control, but there are still issues we have to deal with daily. Good luck! I hope this isn't your first machine. There are many solid CNC's out there.

5/10/22       #15: CNC Purchase ...
Derrek

Website: http://www.closetdr.com

No matter what machine or software you buy, negotiate are the purchase a hold back in money based on certain parameters also negotiated at the sale.
I had a software company that the sales rep told it will do AB&C. They sent a tech to my shop for onsite for a week and middle of day 2 he tells me. It can’t do AB&C we can only do 123. I explained nicely to call his boss and let him know I wouldn’t be paying the final balance because of this. BOOM! Within 20 more bites I had calls from multiple people and amazingly they figured out that they actually could do AB&C. I seriously doubt I would have been satisfied if they had all or most of my money.

5/11/22       #16: CNC Purchase ...
Ryan

We are on our 2nd Biesse Rover A 1536 with 5x12 table and love it. We also run Cabinet Vision and integration was easy. We had our last one for 6 years and our current one for 2 years. We had our issues at first but they were minimal and I always expect some problems when new machines are installed.
We looked at a Homag when we bought the new one, but we didn't think it matched up to the Biesse.
We have had the auto on-load and off-load for 8 years and wouldn't go without it.
Only suggestion I would give you is to add another pump for more suction so you can cut smaller parts. They won't tell you it is necessary but our shop has been using the extra pump for years and it made a big difference.
I did own a Weeke BHP many years ago when we first got into CNC cutting and it was not a good experience.
good luck on whatever machine you decide.

5/11/22       #17: CNC Purchase ...
Pdub Member

How come Dan's response about his new Biesse going in and having problems has the same website signature of the guy above it trying to sell his company's new router? Seems fishy...

5/13/22       #18: CNC Purchase ...
Buy CNC machine in Europe Member

What are the most affordable machines in Europe that will be delivered quickly at nowadays?

5/24/22       #19: CNC Purchase ...
Karl E Brogger  Member

Website: http://www.sogncabinets.com

I have zero experience with Biesseworks. I assume it's similar in function to Woodwop.

It is handy being able to create parametric programs for things that you make frequently that doesn't really work in the traditional cabinet/nesting software. Things like floating shelves. Change a few variables, everything scoots around, run the program. It is nice having that capability. We've got a ton of programs that get reused in a regular basis that take a few seconds to alter.

My shop is small, but I wouldn't go to a straight gcode machine now.

2/22/23       #20: CNC Purchase ...
Brian

homag/stiles is good. would stay away from busselato. parts are expensive and not the best lead times if needed. homag has a good parts department

2/22/23       #21: CNC Purchase ...
Joe Leugers

Website: http://jklmachinery.com

I take exception to Brians comment about spare parts prices for Busellato parts. I was a dealer for Delmac 7 years, always happy with service and support. Now the US Importer since 8/2019 our business model is much different than our competitors of the same level, service centric and sensitive to spare parts costs. Feel free to call me personally to know more 810.623.6538

2/22/23       #22: CNC Purchase ...
Scott

I can’t comment on price, but I know service and availability of parts are fairly non existent if you own SCM.
Who would think you would have to get bearings for a shaper out of Italy.

2/22/23       #23: CNC Purchase ...
Joe Leugers

Website: http://www.jklmachinery.com

We source bearings from multiple suppliers worldwide, almost never more than a week for thk style. Ball bearings always state side.
JKL Machinery is only connected to SCM Italy for all other parts and new machinery and no affiliation with SCM US. All service and support is from our Michigan HQ.


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