Hi,

I’m setting up a bespoke kitchen business. Would like some help with machinery choice please. I plan on making high end, primarily euro style, kitchens. I intend for the business to be small, yet high tech (for me anyway).

I’m planning on dowel construction for the carcasses.

I’ve got the funds to invest in a decent set-up. Along with all the normal woodworking machines, I plan on purchasing a new edgebander, either Holzher or Homag, as quality here is critical for the style kitchens I’m making.

Up to now, I’ve had in mind purchasing a new nesting CNC from the same manufacturer as the edgebander to cut and route the panels. Along with a horizontal boring machine for edge drilling before manually inserting dowels. (In this scenario, a CNC boring machine would be next purchase on the list)

I intend to predrill/countersink on the CNC before glueing with a jollycolla and screwing. (Is this a viable method? I might be able to stretch to a case clamp but would prefer not to in the beginning)

I’m quite confident in getting the orders in and the projected earnings. Even so, now that it’s getting real, signing such a sum of money on the dotted line has got me feeling, shall we say, wobbly. The CNC is the big expense, I’m more relaxed about the other purchases.

Due to the wobble, I’ve thought of a potential different route to take initially. Would love if others chimed in with their thoughts.

In this scenario, we would cut the sheets to size on the panel saw before feeding into a vertical (much cheaper, see attached) CNC that can groove/drill/route the face and drill the edges simultaneously, albeit slowly, one at a time. Then onto edging/dowelling/assembly.

Downside to this is it being much slower, as we have to cut the panels beforehand and the machine can’t just be left to run in the same way a nesting table can, so limits what else we can get done at the same time. It does bypass the horizontal boring step, but still feel like it would be slower.

Upside is that after the business is established and when/if the orders are coming in, I can purchase the posh CNC without losing too much sleep. The vertical machine wouldn’t be a redundant purchase as it can then be used for it’s edge drilling capability. Between that and the nesting CNC, i’d be left with, in my mind, a pretty good set-up.

Sorry for the essay. The only advice I’m getting at the moment are from people who are trying to sell me stuff, so any help with this is much appreciated.

Thanks

Travis

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Travis,
If you were going to move your family and all your belongings across the country, what size moving truck would you rent? You would rent one big enough at the best price to move all your stuff.

I am not trying to be sarcastic in any way, but the questions you are asking are very vague, there are a ton of experts on this site, but questions need to be asked and answered for good input.
Some questions will be, how many cabinets are you planning to build? How big is your shop? How much electricity is available in your shop? How many employees are you hoping to have. What is your ballpark budget to get started. What all do you plan to do on these projects? When I say that I mean starting with a design department all the way to installation. Do you plan to build all your own drawer boxes, doors, mouldings, fillers, finishing with a professional spray booth, storage for completed project, inventory for quite a bit of material and hardware, etc.

Anyways with some more information folks on here can give you a lot of good information without trying to sell you anything.

My first thought from your post is that if you are cutting with a panel saw you won’t be to big for awhile. A nested cnc in my opinion would be a lot better purchase as it is a lot more versatile than a vertical cnc and you would be able to do so many more things with it.

Hi Scott,

Thanks for your input, point taken. Sorry to be vague.

I’m in an area with lots of industrial buildings available to rent. There are long lead times on the machines so it’s my intention to source the building to suit the requirements and not the other way around.

I’m a real estate developer and already employ site carpenters. I’m moving into this business because I prefer the work and want to be able to work close to where I live, which is very rural and on the coast, which isn’t possible with my other line of work.

My expertise is in design and luxury home building. It’s my intention to be surveying, designing and overseeing installations. I’ll be running a full service installation locally but intend to sell supply only to builders/developers and designers across the country(UK). My ambition is to be completely design+supply only. I can commit as many men to the shop as required. I can employ further design/management as required. I’m expecting teething issues so don’t expect to be profitable in the first year.

We’ll be using prefinished birch plywood for the carcasses. The doors will be either spray finished MDF or matched veneer with hardwood lippings on an MDF or birch blank. We’ll make the MDF doors but the spraying and veneering will be outsourced. The mouldings will be outsourced. Worktops/back splashes will be outsourced.

I plan to be as large as the market will allow, which currently is an unknown. If I knew how many cabinets I was going to sell I wouldn’t have any difficulty planning out the business. I think most people run small shops before they invest in big machinery so they have a better idea on output and can plan accordingly.

The nesting table is definitely the way to go if I get consistent orders yet remain comparatively small. Whereas if I go with a small vertical if the business is a flop it’s no big deal whereas if it’s successful the vertical cnc will be a useful addition alongside a nesting table or beam saw or both in a larger output shop. So i’m leaning towards vertical first. Downside is that it’s less efficient initially.

I would say skip the harder to resell vertical machine, skip dowel driller / inserter, skip jollycolla (had to look that up) . Set up cabinets just using the flat table router using qualified blind dados and self-countersinking screws. Simpler, requires fewer people to operate, and while it does take longer to cut a sheet with all this extra joinery, your operator is free to start banding and assembling, and you're not having to rehandle individual parts loading from panel saw to vertical router, not to mention generate individual programs for every ... single ... part. You'd need a barcode printer and a reader on the vertical router, and that sounds like a ton of work unless you're making hundreds of identical parts. Simpler is better when starting out, and the ripcord is easier to pull if you only need to liquidate 3 machines instead of half a dozen. You didn't mention software, which is a key component to whether this enterprise will work.

Hi Jared,

Food for thought, thanks. I had decided early on to go for dowels for a couple of reasons, but I’ll revisit my thought processes as what you say makes sense. I still fancy the Jollycolla though.

Software-wise I’m proficient in and use Vectorworks+Sketchup for initial design, renderings and 2d documents for site/sub-contractors.

There is an add-on to Vectorworks called Interiorcad for 3d parametric modelling to cnc which is big in Germany and catching on here. But after looking around I have been learning and prefer Polyboard, I’m not experienced enough to tell but it seems like it offers everything I need, including barcode/labelling.

Best part about it for me is it’s free to use unless you want to output manufacturing data, at which point you either buy the full software or can pay a small fee and they will do it for you.

It’s been ideal for me to be able to learn without the time constraints you would typically have on a free trial with other software. You also really get to know the software before you pull the trigger on a purchase.

Ok I will jump on the grenade.
First your business plan is weak at best, which is surprising after reading what you have accomplished.
Secondly your mind is made up so not sure why you are asking questions?

My two cents worth, nothing wrong with dowel construction, there are tons of companies who are mass producing with dowels.
I worked for a company for years who did millions of dollars of sales every month out of a 25000 sq ft shop. Storage and warehouse space was separate. The owner was a genius when it came to production. He started out with a beam saw, an edgebander and a nested cnc. He got a vertical cnc later on, but a vertical cnc has one job, machine cabinet parts , you stick a gable in and it does all the machining for your hardware, etc.
End of story, with a nested machine in your situation you can do all the same machining on that gable as the vertical machine, but when that is done you can make MDF doors, you can cut your sheets to make all your cabinet parts, you can make all the carvings for the fronts of things like range hoods, you can machine drawer boxes , the options are endless. For a small to medium size shop it really is a no brainer.
Anyways good luck:

Hi Jeff,

Thanks. There are strengths to the plan that I haven’t gone into. There is method to the madness, promise!

Before posting I was curious to know if there would be an alternative production method that was flexible financially to the uncertainty of a start-up.

You and others have talked me out of it and I think I talked myself out of it in the process. So all good. Just going to bite the bullet and see where it goes. (Being rigid is not the only way to succeed btw, man makes plans and God laughs)

Thanks guys.

If you ask me, nesting CNC+Horizontal Borer for start-up cabinet shop is just more convenient.

I've had a nested based CNC router for 15 years.
If I could do it all over again and could afford it, |I would purchase or lease a CNC nested router, CNC dowel machine, edgebander and a good case clamp.
I used a 21 spindle line boring machine for about 10 years and finally purchased a CNC dowel machine. I never thought it would be such an improvement in both speed an accuracy.
It's a tough decision but for me every time I compromised and bought a smaller machine, I eventually replaced it with the one I should have bought in the first place.

Everyone wants speed but the reality is the CNC only has to be as fast as the edgebander.

I would use a manual end drilling machine to start. Look at Lockdowel. We went from dowels to that - don't do a lot but it was faster for us.

Or look for an old Biesse FSE drill/inserter. Would get you to the next stage and then stick in in the corner for when the CNC doweler breaks/glitches.

Even though they are bigger, machines are expendable like hand tools. Buy used cheap and scrap when they outlive their usefulness. We made cabinets for a number of years on an old ANDI that was given to us.

HI Travis. You asked whether glue and screw is a viable method for dowel construction. The short answer is ....maybe. For plywood yes, for melamine definitely not. You should have a case clamp.
You should also consider a good used drawer clamp. It is essential for doweled drawer boxes.
There is plenty of good advice on here already and I would concur to skip the vertical cnc and go with the nesting option. Make sure the cnc can be upgraded to include a loading and offloading table later.
Don't waste money on the jollcolla. There are plenty of cheaper options to get glue into a dowel hole or groove.
The blind dado option is saves you the cnc doweller and case clamp,but doesnt solve the drawer issue. Nothing beats dowels for drawer boxes.You could accomplish this with a fixed head doweller though.And get the best of both worlds.
Also don't underestimate the software issue. It should be able to grow with you. You don't want to be switching software every couple years.
Im also not sure how you plan to make mdf doors without a nested cnc?
With the vertical? I find it a bit suspect that it could do that efficiently and quality wise also.
A cheaper cnc will also make subpar mdf doors.Trying to fix the issues with sanding will eat your profits instead.
Good luck on your journey.

I have a 5x10 CNC, a bander, 21 spindle boring machine, Sketchup with a cabinet plugin. Use confirmats on unfinished ends and dowels (by hand) on finished ends. Agree with the other comments that the manual dowel inserter makes no sense. I think doweling everything only makes sense time wise if you have one of the big automated inserter machines and a case clamp to go along with it. Otherwise, stick with confirmats or a similar fastener on unfinished ends and do dowels by hand on the finished ends or just use a separate finished panel to avoid doweling completely.