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Automatic Tool Change Alternative System

3/12/24       
BH Davis

As most here know I retired some years ago and then eventually set up a retirement shop. As part of the new space I picked up a early 2000's era 4x8 CNC. I've done a lot to upgrade that over the past 7 or 8 years and have it set up pretty much to my satisfaction at this point.

However, one key function has eluded me until now. Every time I run multi bit files I have to deal with manually changing tools.

It's obviously hard to justify the cost of an ATC spindle, tool rack setup and an air dryer for a $5000 used 20+ year old CNC.......especially one that is used far more for pleasure than profit. While Chinese spindles have significantly lowered the setup cost for a true ATC system it's still more than one can realistically justify in this situation.

THIS IS NOT AN AD for a new system. I'm merely sharing what I've found and bought into. I suspect there are plenty of small shop owners out there who will find this intriguing.

The link below will take you to Rapidchange ATC. There are a number of DIY ATC systems on Youtube but this is the only one I've found that is truly professionally designed and commercially available. Don, the company owner, has turned his idea of a DIY ATC into a viable business. If you peruse his site you'll find versions available for most all of the ER collect systems. However my Perske spindle uses something called a SYOZ 20 collet/nut setup. I sent Don a set of these and he modified one of the ER systems to accommodate the Perske.

I'm in the middle of installing this on my CNC right now. I've actually done a number of initial test tool changes and it does work. My SYOZ collet nuts require a minor modification in order to work with the Rapidchange ATC and I'll take 5 more of them to a machine shop next week to have it done. In the mean time I just have the one initial nut I had modified in order to test it all out. I'm looking forward to having 6 tools in a row in this new rack and watching it go from one to another.

As you watch the videos undoubtedly some questions of the operation will arise. The most significant will likely be accommodating the reverse rotation of the spindle for unloading and the abrupt, momentary stall of the rotation when locking the collet nut. This may end up being a cause for concern but in my case, with a 20 year old Perske spindle, and Chinese replacements a few hundred dollars away, I'm willing to give it a go.

The real clincher to all this, along with the fact that it actually works, is the cost. For $400 to $1000, depending upon the size and features you select, you have a complete ATC system. I've spent a fair amount of time on the phone with Don and he's actually sold hundreds of these. He's worked with router manufacturers and control software companies and has post processors for a wide variety of brands, with more in the pipeline.

BH Davis

Rapidchange ATC

3/13/24       #2: Automatic Tool Change Alternative S ...
Jr Lee  Member

Website: http://www.leecabinets.com

Thanks for the post BH. I am in in the same situation as you. semi-retired and hate to spend money for an ATC spindle and associated hardware. I have been looking at the Rapid Change also and appreciate your post. Please keep us updated.

Jr

3/13/24       #3: Automatic Tool Change Alternative S ...
Dropout Member

Ok, this scares the xxx out of me.

The website says 12 to 15 foot pounds of torque on the nut.

An ER16 collet needs 42 ,an ER25 needs 77 and an ER32 112.

An under-torqued nut will allow an up spiral bit to act like a screw and thread through the material into the router table bed. Don't ask...

Hobby stuff, maybe,

3/13/24       #4: Automatic Tool Change Alternative S ...
BH Davis

I've done some experimenting. Running my 5hp spindle at 1000 rpm during lock on gave me a tighter nut than I had been doing by hand with the wrenches. However 1000 rpm intermittently made the collet nut slots jump over the lock points.

So I dropped the rpm to 850 in order to eliminate the skip over issue. That gave me collet nut tightness just a tad less than I typically do with the wrenches.

I think once I'm done setting it all up I'll probably settle in at aroud 875 to 925 rpm.

I'm not sure if the torque applied by a rotating nut can be equated to the leverage torque applied by a torque wrench. Not saying one way or the other just questioning.

Bottom line is if you purchase the Rapidchange ATC you are obviously going to test your collet nut tightness a lot early on to make sure you're good with it.

BH Davis

3/13/24       #5: Automatic Tool Change Alternative S ...
BH Davis

I was too late to edit the last post and add this quote from the website:

"Torque applied to the clamping nut is achieved through the inertia of the spindle and the sudden stop, similar to an impact wrench. Depending on the quality of the clamping nut used. Torque values range between 10 and 14ft-lbs. with a 2.2Kw spindle and ER20 collets, which is more than sufficient for most high speed applications and has been thoroughly tested."

Note that is mentioning a 2.2kw spindle which equates to about 3 hp. That does give pause for thought. However as I've said I also immediately tested the tightness of my SYOZ 20 collet nut (Perske spindle.....slightly smaller than ER20 if I remember correctly) and it was more than adequate.

BH Davis

3/13/24       #6: Automatic Tool Change Alternative S ...
Dropout Member

I guess with a 2.2 kw spindle you're not taking full depth cuts in 18mm baltic birch at 900 IPM either.

:)

3/13/24       #7: Automatic Tool Change Alternative S ...
jerry Member

What scares ne is what if the nut is just a little crooked in the unit and the spindle cross threads it

3/13/24       #8: Automatic Tool Change Alternative S ...
BH Davis

Yup.....legit concern as well, and covered in detail on in the videos.

I had some cross threading at first until I got the rack properly located. It needs to be more precise than on regular tool holders but very doable to be consistent and avoid cross threading.

I suggest watching some of the videos. They are what sold me on giving it a try.

BH Davis

3/19/24       #9: Automatic Tool Change Alternative S ...
cheriLongsworth Member

Website: https://virmer.com/

I don't like the idea of cross threading, it decreases accuracy, reduces quality (all these tear-outs and and chatter marks), but most importantly — cross threading puts additional stress on the CNC router's spindle causing damage to the machine.

3/19/24       #10: Automatic Tool Change Alternative S ...
Brian

Novel concept and I can see it working at home.
I am curious as to the torque on the nut.
What I really don't like is that you have lost your touch off on the tool. Don't even try to tell me that it is accurate, it's not. You need to touch off unless you are running through cuts.

But it's a neat idea!!

3/19/24       #11: Automatic Tool Change Alternative S ...
BH Davis  Member

Website: http://www.bhdavis.net
 The software automatically touches off the tool on each pickup. I have a 6-position rack and I'm putting a probe in the first hole, leaving space for 5 tools. My material height will be retained as a separate entry like in any ATC situation.
This is not an ATC designed for the industrial user. Indeed I wouldn't have replaced my HSD ES919 spindle with this in the curved moulding business. But for small shops and home users it opens doors that have been closed due to cost. If you walk around the trade shows looking at the lower cost 4x8 CNCs you would have to increase the cost of those by a significant percentage in order to include an air activated ATC spindle system.........even if they went with the Chinese clones. This is a very viable alternative.

I'm still sorting out load and unload speeds. I've got it working now at 1200 rpm on load and 1400 I think on unload. At 1200 load rpm I cannot get the nut any tighter with the collet wrenches.
BH Davis
3/19/24       #12: Automatic Tool Change Alternative S ...
Brian

I see where you're coming from. Getting past the 3 phase hurdle keeps many eligible used machines from finding a home in the home workshop.

3/27/24       #13: Automatic Tool Change Alternative S ...
Erick Member

Website: https://wattsan.com/products/laser-machines/

Have you tried a torque wrench?

3/27/24       #14: Automatic Tool Change Alternative S ...
BH Davis  Member

Website: http://www.bhdavis.net

No, haven't tried a torque wrench since that was sold with the business. This is a simple Perske spindle with two wrenches which I've been using to tighten the spindle nut for about 5 years. I know how far to press the wrenches for a tight fit and what force is needed to remove the nut. If the system is tightening more than I was, and it takes more force to loosen than I had been applying in the past, then all is good.

I wish you all would ease back on trying to find faults here and see this is what it is: a reasonable solution for light to medium duty CNC spindles.

BH Davis

4/14/24       #15: Automatic Tool Change Alternative S ...
BH Davis  Member

Website: http://www.bhdavis.net
 Well for those interested here is a video of the tool rack installed and running.
I still have a number of things to do including figuring out why I get an occasional cross thread on load. Plus I have to figure out and build a new retracting dust skirt as my old fixed skirt doesn't clear the tool rack. And if the rack position ends up being in the way of processing panels I'll probably build an extending plate for the rack to sit on that comes out from the far end of the table where it is out of the way when retracted and within reach of the spindle when pushed out. As it is the rack edge is only about 1/2" beyond Y0 so that could turn out to be a problem.
For now though I'm up and running.
BH Davis

Don't know if that link will work so here it is again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKulCI9qnvs

BH Davis Rapidchange ATC Installation


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