Howdy Woodweb!

We purchased a brand new cnc router from CR Onsrud August 2023 to replace one of our aging Komo routers. Unfortunately this machine has created more problems than we had originally with the 23 year old komo that was removed.

Nonetheless, I was hoping to get some opinions from other industry professionals on our machines' phenolic spoilboard, the manufacturing defects, and whether I am asking too much for CR Onsrud to replace the faulty component under warranty.

This issue started when we were doing our first spoilboard change. As we were unbolting the CR Onsrud provided MDF spoilboard some of the bolts started to remove and then would “pop” back down into their hole and spin freely.

We continued on to remove the remaining +/- 30 machine bolts. As we were going through attempting to remove the bolts one of the bolts ripped through the mdf spoilboard with the insert still attached to the bolt...... (see photo).

After sending a picture to CR Onsrud tech support, it turns out that CR Onsrud had mistakenly thread-locked the bolt to the insert and NOT the insert to the phenolic table. Tech Support made mention that this has been an ongoing problem and they were just as frustrated with their “final assembly team” that it had not been resolved and were waiting for them to reach out to provide a way to fix.

Tech support called back and recommended that we cut the spoil-board into small pieces around the stuck bolts to be able to remove it in small pieces. After removing the MDF we saw that the threads on the phenolic housing the insert were stripped and in many locations this pressure had actually broken the phenolic mound from the table all together.

Very frustrating situation. But we are only human. And as a business owner I know that people make mistakes. Per CR Onsrud tech support recommendation we used a torch to heat the bolt/insert softening the thread-lock. Then we picked a new location for the inserts in a nearby undamaged section of phenolic, tapped a new threaded hole in the phenolic and installed the threaded insert.

We moved 7 of the inserts and then continued on to running the flycut program to machine the countersunk holes and surface the top and bottom of our spoil-board. We followed the provided instructions that were in our user manual under the section “replacing MDF spoil-board”

Unfortunately the thread-locked bolts were just the beginning…

After installing the new spoil-board and hold-down bolts we noticed that our spoil-board was still loose and the bolts were not coming into contact with our MDF spoil-board. We double checked the program to confirmed that we had correctly machined the spoil-board. All was correct so we decided to remove the new spoil-board to further investigate.

Once we removed the spoil-board we noticed that 17 of the phenolic mounds had been completely sheared from the table!

Immediately contacted tech support and provided them with our “flycut” file for their review, included an in depth explanation of our process, and included photos of our phenolic table. All of which was confirmed correct by CR Onsrud Tech Support and eventually they admitted that they had incorrectly made the phenolic table.

Tech support offered to send a technician to move all of our bolts/inserts to a different location on the table and install them at the correct depth. But I would be responsible for the cost of all hardware that is replaced (inserts and bolts??? Seems petty to charge me for a handful of nuts and bolts after they sold me a machine with defects)

They also said that IF I felt that I needed the phenolic to be repaired they could glue new mounds onto my table.

I explained my dismay and how I never expected to be charged for something that was sold to me defective. This machine was purchased brand new (at this point only 3 months old) and was still under the CR Onsrud “FULL 2 YEAR WARRANTY” displayed proudly as the FIRST line item on their “standard features” list.

[Edited]

I have been going back and forth with them for the past 8 months about this

-Am I wrong to expect a major component defect to be replaced by CR Onsrud?

-Am I asking too much for them to stand by their product?

-Should I just pay to fix their problems and move on? Or should I count my losses and wait to replace this machine with a different manufacturer that stands by their products?

-If a manufacturer offers a trade in due to their defects/lack of quality control/poor workmanship. Would you expect to cover their cost of doing so?

If this is happening to me, it will happen to you. And more than anything I want to warn the rest of you. They have had months and months to make it right and lock in a customer for life. But they put profits first.

Thanks again WoodWeb for taking the time to offer your opinion on this issue, I am hoping that this will reach at least one other person/company that was considering a CR Onsrud router.

View higher quality, full size image (974 X 1278)

View higher quality, full size image (5096 X 1832)

View higher quality, full size image (3024 X 4032)

Whoaa I didn’t realize c.r. Onsrud got down like that.

I saw one of their sales books on my boss desk a little while ago and it was the first time I had ever heard of them. We cut metal not wood. I just sent him this link.

Having worked at other manufacturers, I would recommend discussing this with a lawyer. Replacing the phenolic top is not cheap and is a time consuming pain in the a**, but other than user error which this is not, it should be a covered item. That said, read the warranty, does it specifically exclude the phenolic top? Does it exclude shipping and or labor? Do you have the names, dates and times of the tech support reps you spoke with (your lawyer may need them). As you know having a flat true surface is imperative to having accurate cut depths. I also noticed in the picture that the "mounds" are not centered on the table. on the right hand side, you can see where it started to cut "mounds" at the edge. Sloppy engineering if you ask me.

Aren't they supposed to be one of the better brands?

Karl,
I would just say they aren't the worst brand. After seeing their product in the field, I haven't even bothered getting a quote from them.

We ALMOST bought one of their routers. Decided to go with a manufacture that owns all their components.

They’re welders….. and then just bolt on other people’s technology. Fanuc, hsd, leitz, etc. and put their stickers on.

When I saw that they do not provide in house warranty for anything that is not made by CR Onsrud it was a red flag for me.

I think they get the slabs of phenolic shipped in and they machine the vac table in house…

the fact that they won’t fix their mistakes without any questions asked is disappointing.

We had one of their early routers (probably 20yrs ago). It was a disaster. The controller, wiring, toolchanger, ballscrews, problem after problem. Biggest problem was the phenolic tables. They were very unstable and always changing in shape and dimensions, making any sort of accuracy impossible.

They were nice guys and helped all they could but they were new into the CNC router game and all they really did was stack & weld steel tubing and bolt on parts. Can't say much about them now but their designs still look similar.

Kevin, that's eerily similar to my experience since we got this machine.

controller disconnection issues
defective spindle
defective wiring
missing vac control parts
no foam for dust on our energy chains
overtravel alarms
fanuc sv-alarms

I do agree with you on the tech support. They are nice and I can not imagine dealing with the broad range of problems that they deal with. The sales team and even more so their authorized dealers (cough....RT MACHINE....cough) have no idea what they are talking about and will not go to bat for you against CR Onsrud. Would be great if CR Onsrud promoted from within the company and put technicians in sales positions so the people selling the machines had hands on knowledge about it.

That’s some bullsh*t. I agree with Jim. Call a lawyer

Or call the reps in North Carolina that promoted them as the “best thing made in NC”

Shameful to put made in America on a Chinese quality machine

JG

Very unfortunate to have a new machine and have problems.
I’m a problem solver and get things done kind of guy, and it sure sounds like you have a case. The real question is what’s the cost to you in time and energy to continue to fight with them to get them to fix it vs biting the bullet and just fixing it yourself and getting up and running and making money?
Me, I would do whatever it takes to get up and running as soon as possible, then blast them on social media with a few videos and ask them to make it right.

JG,
Calling a lawyer could easily cost more than the machine.

Derrek, me too!!

I personally handled our repairs on the komos for well over a decade. There is something about having to figure out how something works to find the problem that makes it a thrill to me. I have never had any training on any electrical control systems. But repairing these types of machines with a shop at a stand still makes you learn really quick!

We are running the machine as is. Its not ideal and I expected better from a USA "manufacture". But at the end of the day there is no room for down times. We are busy. Very busy. That is actually one of the main if not the main reason that we decided to get a new machine. We can not wait for replacement parts, wait for diagnostics, or be faced with unexpected machine breakdowns. (ironically, CR Onsurd machines quality is so bad we have faced more problems than we did with our 23 year old routers.)

RichC, youre right about that. We decided that instead of spending that money, we would save it for a replacement, and then we could share our experience with the rest of you to help make an educated purchases.

"then we could share our experience with the rest of you to help make an educated purchases."

I have a Weeke. I've been completely happy with the machine.
I was entertaining an Onsrud as a replacement. Which is still a ways down the road.

I have handled quite a few cases similar to this with other manufacturers/industries.

id bet that their warranty does not define how they handle their quality/workmanship issues.

Typically shady manufactures leave the warranty wide open to interpretation. Which leads to long emotional arguments back and forth between seller/buyer on whether a repair or replacement is deemed necessary. And that’s what they want. They want the customer to get worn out and move on with life.

You will learn really quick the type and integrity of a manufacture if they won’t replace their defective components.

The false advertising is a whole other can of worms. But from what I’m reading it seems like thats normal for these guys.

If there is anything I can do for you please feel free to dm me.

Eli, thank you for your comment. I’m on the road right now but if my memory serves me I think the CR Onsrud warranty is similar to your explanation I’ll post it when I have a chance.

How about if you have had and continue to have these issues its your (MFG) responsibility to fix the issue both during assembly and if these defective products have made it in to the field it is your (MFG) for fixings these issues on your dime and stop asking the customer to fix your problems.

I currently run a CR Onsrud Router that is approaching 10 years in age. I haven't had a ton of problems from it, other than things that were just uncontrollable or not the manufacturers fault. That being said, I think that many of the design choices and engineering choices were poor. My machine has no way to control the lash/mesh on the x and u drives other than forcing the drive pinion into the rack and tightening the bolts that hold the servo down. None of the electrical parts are made anymore (B&R controls) and must be sourced used or rebuilt, and Onsrud will source them for you at exactly double the cost. I do all of my own maintenance for this reason, and when looking to replace the machine, will not be looking to do business with them again, even if they are local. I'm just thankful that we aren't built around CNC routers and could probably get by without one just fine. As for the original poster, I would be ringing their phone constantly. They'd fix it just to get rid of the nuisance.

James,
I have done programming for customers with B&R controls. I have heard nothing good about them. I never even heard of them until I worked for these people. G-code seemed fairly standard, but some of their results were less than optimal. All good, since I made parts for them and made a profit.

OP, Did they send a technician or representative to your facility to see the problems? And that’s when they declined?

will:
No they have not came to see it. I did just pay for them to do my 1 year service. Although they are not going to do the repair/replace of the table. Just a routine service call.

James H:
Yeah them being a couple hours away from me was a factor i used during my purchase. unfortunately it is still $2,000 just for the travel from NC to MD.

Maurice:
Yeahhhh no kidding.

Z
Had an issue with my Northwood after a crash today. I programmed a part that was 6" thick on pods. I did not think to edit the code to keep the dust hood up. Anyway, it resulted in a crash that must have made the ball screw belt jump a notch. Northwood send me the docs that they send to their techs to do a grid shift to align the tables back up. We are back cutting parts. I like fixing stuff I can. I'm getting old so I don't like the heavy stuff, but I appreciate having what I need in front of me.

Mike, I love fixing stuff! Nothing gets me more excited than learning about something on the fly and getting it fixed.

We have a Holzher supercut 1230 cnc vert panel saw. And as im sure most of you have encountered before. A discontinued Siemens plc s7-200 tried to retire itself the other day. after a little bit of head scratching and schematic reading it turned out to be a transistor on the internal pcb. Overnighted for $5. And bam! The dinosaur is back in action. Roar!!

I wish it was still economically viable for me to service all my machines but our shop is growing and growing fast. Its too expensive to be down for more than an hour or two and in turn its cheaper for us to pay for same day service or as we have been doing, purchase new machinery under warranties (or so I thought)

I had a LONG conversation with Northwood on Monday. Shared ALL my horror stories with my 1 year old CR Onsrud. Hard to believe some of the stuff I have had to deal with but I’ve kept all my conversations with them after their first warranty denial within a few weeks after purchase.

I can’t bring myself to actually spend anytime working on this CR Onsrud turd. They need to fix their mistakes. I’m not doing it for them.

So for now I will just keep sharing my story.

As for Northwood, they actually offered to come replace my CR Onsrud phenolic table with an aluminum table for less than CR Onsrud wants me to pay to fix their manufacturing mistakes.

Quite an eye opening experience to see just how poorly CR Onsrud actually treats their customers after your payment clears.

As of right now. Northwood has my money for the next machine. And from talking to other shops in Tom Onsrud’s back yard. I’m not the only one looking somewhere else.

Mike, I love fixing stuff! Nothing gets me more excited than learning about something on the fly and getting it fixed.

We have a Holzher supercut 1230 cnc vert panel saw. And as im sure most of you have encountered before. A discontinued Siemens plc s7-200 tried to retire itself the other day. after a little bit of head scratching and schematic reading it turned out to be a transistor on the internal pcb. Overnighted for $5. And bam! The dinosaur is back in action. Roar!!

I wish it was still economically viable for me to service all my machines but our shop is growing and growing fast. Its too expensive to be down for more than an hour or two and in turn its cheaper for us to pay for same day service or as we have been doing, purchase new machinery under warranties (or so I thought)

I had a LONG conversation with Northwood on Monday. Shared ALL my horror stories with my 1 year old CR Onsrud. Hard to believe some of the stuff I have had to deal with but I’ve kept all my conversations with them after their first warranty denial within a few weeks after purchase.

I can’t bring myself to actually spend anytime working on this CR Onsrud turd. They need to fix their mistakes. I’m not doing it for them.

So for now I will just keep sharing my story.

As for Northwood, they actually offered to come replace my CR Onsrud phenolic table with an aluminum table for less than CR Onsrud wants me to pay to fix their manufacturing mistakes.

Quite an eye opening experience to see just how poorly CR Onsrud actually treats their customers after your payment clears.

As of right now. Northwood has my money for the next machine. And from talking to other shops in Tom Onsrud’s back yard. I’m not the only one looking somewhere else.

Eli: You called it. I reviewed the CR Onsrud warranty they provide to all new machine purchases. (even though their website said "FULL 2 YEAR WARRANTY"

Maybe I am missing something. But incorrectly machining the phenolic table (completed at CR Onsrud by CR Onsrud) sure seems like a 100% perfect example of a workmanship failure.

We had our 1 year service completed on Friday. The tech was awesome. I showed him all the items above and he was VERY embarrassed that the CR Onsrud wont replace their defective table.

View higher quality, full size image (1866 X 774)

I have been back and forth with the idea of keeping an older machine running vs getting a new one. There are so many variables that go into this it is very hard to make a general statement. Each shop and owner has different needs and skills.

The bottom line I have figured out for me, and this may be where you (the OP) end up, is that if even an hour of downtime is an unbearable cost, then you need to have redundancy built into the system. By that I mean you need to have another machine that you can use. Whether it is just an extra that is on standby, or if you run it during normal production hours but could be run 2nd and 3rd shifts to take up the capacity of the one that is down.

I say this because even the best machines are going to be down at some point and with the way most wood industry machines are you don't have the needed parts or technicians across the street, they may have to fly in, and if they are already on a job you have to wait your turn. I have had my hands on alot of different machines from alot of different countries, US, Europe and Asia both in wood and metal working. They all need worked on..

I picked the machines I have because I can work on them. I am many hours from the nearest big airport and it is just too costly to get a tech in my door, both in time and money.

Jason,
When it was time for a new router, we looked at possibly selling our old one. Based on the numbers we were seeing, we decided to make room for it and rearrange the back shop to accommodate it. I'm glad we made that decision. The old machine is still dead accurate, so they both run everyday. The old one may not run the whole shift, but sometimes it does and takes a load off the new machine. The machine has far more value for us in our shop versus the amount of money we would have seen off of a sale.

Jason,

Thanks for the reply!

I had been servicing and repairing both our Komos for many years. A few years back I purchased a used, yet completely operational komo from the same time period that I ended up stripping down and stocking the components as replacements/backups. (for perspective, this complete machine was cheaper than rebuilding one of my 16hp Colombo Spindles)
Redundancy is very very important and unfortunately it was a learning experience for me as well. I should have kept my old steel. She was a TANK and right on the money. But the control electronics kept on failing. CR Onsrud was adamant that their 1 router would out perform my 2 komos. Well that was just not the case in the least. And if there was not manufacturing defects from day 1 on the CR Onsrud machine. I think it would have been a close matchup.
I totally understand the need for maintenance and having PM scheduled service. And this is something take very seriously. We just had a tech visit for 7 hours and it cost 4,500 dollars. I have no problem working on the router should I need to. It was my mistake to expect for a brand new machine to not have any major defects. And it is a learning mistake I will not make again.
I will add that this defect in their machinery is more than diagnosing and changing out a bad component. This 5x12 slab of phenolic is cut and leveled by the router it is bolted to. And to replace this table is extensive and expensive. Im not saying I can not do it. However, the Faro ADM laser measurement system used to measure the phenolic is a $200,000 measuring device on its own.