Message Thread:
dye stain vs spray-only stains
3/28/16
so heres the deal......an up-coming project will consist of red and white oak . the client asked if the oak can be stained in a manner which eliminates or lessens the contrast of the grain......in other words , lessen or eliminate the cathedral effect .
my first thought is dye stain . I've used dye stains in the past , although not nearly as often as wiping/pigment stains . I suspect I spray them quite dilute compared to someone who uses them regularily ; but thats alright with me . results were good , which is more important than how fast i can spray it .
my next thought was spray-only stain . I've never used them , so Im not sure of how they compare to dye stains . so thats my topic...........whats the difference/s between dye stain and spray-only stains ?
is one better than the other from a quality perspective ? is there a chance of over-application with spray-only stains ?
is a spray-only stain similar to a toner in composition or application ?
I probably have a bunch more questions about these stains.....but this is a pretty good start .
3/29/16 #2: dye stain vs spray-only stains ...
Use spray stain. Pretty much obliterates the grain. Spray, no wiping.
3/29/16 #3: dye stain vs spray-only stains ...
Don't you need paint to lessen the cathedral effect?
3/29/16 #4: dye stain vs spray-only stains ...
Anything you use will show the cathedral. If you don't want to see it, use another wood! How about poplar? Maple?
3/30/16 #5: dye stain vs spray-only stains ...
or rift cut oak
3/30/16 #6: dye stain vs spray-only stains ...
the wood being used for the project is not my call . its already purchased , and is what it is .
the goal isnt to completely obliterate the woodgrain . the goal is to lessen the color difference between the large and small pores . yes , similar to how maple stains.....no large pores highlighted .
maybe I"ll do samples with both . that way the client can decide which looks better .
so how does spray stain compare to a wiping stain ?
it must have the same components ...as in it must have a binder , a solvent , and a pigment . but what makes it a spray-only ? more binder ?
Robert......is over-application an issue with spray-only products ? clear-coat adhesion problems common ? seems to me that this could be an issue , but really not sure at all .
3/30/16 #7: dye stain vs spray-only stains ...
Maybe you'll do samples? Maybe?
Always do samples! Gahhh!
3/30/16 #8: dye stain vs spray-only stains ...
I suggest getting half of the tone with a spray applied stain such as amazing stain by m.l. campbell, then seal and sand and tone with either a diluted dye or the same stain.
3/31/16 #9: dye stain vs spray-only stains ...
Pat.......you missed the last 2 words in that sentence . of course I always do samples....geesh .
Thom....thanks for that suggestion . it turns out I may have an availability issue with my supplier though ......but it's being looked into . I have a S.W. close by , but nearest MLC is too far .
3/31/16 #10: dye stain vs spray-only stains ...
I would say Thorn has made the best suggestion(s).
Not to derail, but.......it's funny how (often) people object to the Very Thing that makes natural wood a beauty. :)
3/31/16 #11: dye stain vs spray-only stains ...
Using stains that have white in them will help you blend the grain and flake together. It will muddy up the look but I don't know of another way. Just my opinion.
4/1/16 #12: dye stain vs spray-only stains ...
We can all make our own spray applied stain by just tinting solvent with an added 10 percent vinyl sealer.
4/1/16 #13: dye stain vs spray-only stains ...
I don't know what your budget is. If you want the grain to recede into the background then fill the grain with the color your are finishing. It really doesn't make any sense to use both red and white oak together. Red oak has a more pronounced grain than the white. Consequently they accept stain differently. If you don't have the budget to fill the grain then I would use a spray only stain. This option will mitigate the differences between the two species.You still will have very pronounced grain. As mentioned in the prior post you can make your own spray stain. That way you can control the pigment load and the overall cost is less than a factory made product.
4/1/16 #14: dye stain vs spray-only stains ...
to clarify , the project is a new-build side-by-side 2 family . red oak on one side , white oak on the other .kitchen cabs , passage doors , trim , and bells and whistles on both sides .
grain filling would be too much of a cost increase . pretty sure I can accomplish the goal without going that route .
Denny....I hear ya brother . if I had my way , wood stains would be banned from the kingdom .
Im gonna play around with several of the ideas here . it might come down to whether I can get a spray-only product locally though....still waiting on that .
thanks to all who contributed .
if anybodys interested , I can post pics of what I came up with .
4/5/16 #15: dye stain vs spray-only stains ...
Jimmy,
All I use anymore is dye stain. I did use spray stain before that but had adhesion issues. The dye stain works excellent for me on tight grained woods like maple, but penetration into the open grain is hard to achieve with the dye(at least for me). I use wiping stain on oak, which is hardly ever. I don't think you'll be able to cover up the grain of the oak with any stain.
4/6/16 #16: dye stain vs spray-only stains ...
thanks mike . I like dye stain too.....but on oak it doesnt look right to me ; looks kinda flat. I also notice how the dye wont settle down into the deep pores . but the dye-only sample is definitely the right look .
thanks for commenting on the adhesion issue . that was on my mind .
will be trying tinted base-coat and dye/tinted base-coat samples next . pretty sure those will look nicer than the straight up dyes .
4/6/16 #17: dye stain vs spray-only stains ...
Couple more thoughts on how the dye might work better for you. I like to turn the pressure way down and basically spray droplets of dye. At higher pressure there is some blowback that keeps it from getting in the corners and it just mists the surface. However with the pressure very low and spraying a shower it will actually throw more of a penetrating coat. On maple sometimes it will even try to puddle but I don't think it would on oak. If the heavy coat is to dark then diluting would lighten it up. Just something you'd have to do a couple test runs with. One thing I can say about dyes, I get more of an even color with them than I ever did with wiping.
4/8/16 #18: dye stain vs spray-only stains ...
Great thread. How are you mixing your formula for your dyes. Having trouble with my meathods repeating accurate color matches.....
4/12/16 #19: dye stain vs spray-only stains ...
Mike.........you reduce atomizing pressure or pot pressure ? or both ? Ive always sprayed dyes thru my CVI gravity guns with a .8 tip and the atomzing pressure lower than the recommended 29 psi ( between 15 and 20 if i remember right ) . and then i slowly adjust material flow to bring it up to where i need it .
Jim....im hopin someone chimes in on that ; Ive had that issue also . my solution has been to make sure I mix up enough to start with.....which turns out to be about three times what I needed ...haha . maybe the answer is to use only stock/un-mixed colors .
4/12/16 #20: dye stain vs spray-only stains ...
Jimmy Cream
I am wondering if I did as you said just use the straight factory dyes and delute if they are too strong. As long as that dye was less then (lighter) the true finish color. Then take that sample to my finish supplier and get a wiping stain (2nd coat over the dye)to bring it to the target match.
If I understand correctly, other finishers are doing this to yield what describe as "depth of finish".........
I know if I put yellow dye under brown it warms it up. Orange dye under a dark mahogany it takes on(brightens) an entire new life. So all of that is about big changes and effects.
But what about a simple color where the underlying dye followed by wiping stain that were fairly close to each other.....? Does that yield a "better" look.
Maybe the question is obvious but we have such group of knowledge and experience, this is the place to ask......
just jim
4/12/16 #21: dye stain vs spray-only stains ...
Applying a dye stain and then covering it with a gel stain makes no sense. What is your finish protocol? If your objective is to get the color by whatever means then that makes sense. If you want to get the color and still see the wood then a different process is necessary. I don't know how dark the color is that you are matching. For me in a production environment it makes more sense to do either a dye stain, wash coat sealer, and a few toner layers, and top coat. Or a spray no wipe, pigmented stain, sealer, and top coat. The first choice with a dye stain, wash coat, and top coat will give you the cleanest and brightest color.
4/12/16 #22: dye stain vs spray-only stains ...
I only use a gravity gun and I think the tip is a 1.0
I rarely adjust the fluid just the air.
I mix dyes all the time to create different colors. Some have become pretty popular for me. I just write down the recipe on the back of my sample doors.
The brown mahogany I use is actually purple if used by itself but it mixed with some of my other colors really gives a nice rich color.
4/12/16 #23: dye stain vs spray-only stains ...
Robert
Just asking about procedures I have read about others using on this finishing forum.
They weren't useing a gell stain but a lacquer wiping stain. Years ago I think they called it hulls 844. Just a pigmented lacquer wiping stain color mixed into a clear stain base like MLC or any other manufacturer of stain.
Finishers on this forum spoke of it as a 2 step color process that enhanced the color. I am asking about the process. If others found value in it??
4/12/16 #24: dye stain vs spray-only stains ...
Degusa 844 or Hulls are pigments to be used in a stain, or glaze, etc. 844's are super concentrated and should never be used as a stain. I like some of the 844 colors. The Phthalo Green and Phthalo Blue can be difficult to use. If I need a pure green without a blue cast I use Mixol's. Anyway, the point I am trying to make is I believe it is necessary to have a protocol for finishing processes. Knowing your ultimate objective really determines the necessary steps to achieve the look you are after. It may sound a little long winded but it has saved my ass many times. You have to look at your objective analytically. There are so many different options available today that it just makes more sense to be methodical in your approach. Applying a dye stain and then a lacquer stain might be an issue. It is possible that it could lift the dye out of the wood. That would be a disaster. I would stay away from any wiping stain that has acetone or lacquer as a solvent. They dry too fast to control on a large surface. That is why there are spray no wipes. If I knew the color you are trying to achieve this would be easier. Tell me what value it is. White being a 1 and black being a 10. You are using both red and white oak? Give me a description.
4/12/16 #25: dye stain vs spray-only stains ...
Robert
Thank you for trying to help. The majority of my work is refinishing cabinet to the same or "some" darker color. When I purchase my color at my local MLC supplyer he adds the relatively small amount of Degusa or hulls 844 stain to a can of clear stain base. I can use it as a wiping stain on raw wood but after a cleaning, sanding process I am putting it on already finished cabinets. So my darker color is over some other color. So I am applying it as a toner. And spray to target color. But I still want to see the grain and not turn it into paint. If I am trying to move the color just a little darker. It dosent work as the old color is too prominent. If I tone enough to hide the old color it could just then be paint. So maybe your straight dye meathod is the way to go. And I just need to learn to mix the correct color myself as the place where I have my color matches done does not do dye color matches.
4/12/16 #26: dye stain vs spray-only stains ...
If i understand what you are doing. You are taking an existing finish and making it darker but not muddy. Am I right.
4/12/16 #27: dye stain vs spray-only stains ...
Yes, that's exactly right.
4/12/16 #28: dye stain vs spray-only stains ...
If you are trying to shift the color. You have a few options. First a toner. You can really thin out your toner and sneak up on the color. Take mostly solvent, your lacquer, and a dye like trans tints. So you are 90% solvent, 10% coating, and you dye load is minimal. I think mistake you are making is you are adding to much dye and it gets to dark right away. The other option only applies if the new color objective is not a great jump in value. I would take a oil based stain and dry brush the color on to the door, cabinets, etc. Dry brushing is a skill because you can not leave any brush marks. In the future I think it makes sense to buy concentrated dyes. Sherwin William's has a bunch. MLC has microtoner dyes that are super concentrated. Learn how to play with color and take a slow approach. A lot of light passes is a better solution than one or two heavy coats. Does this information make sense to you?
4/12/16 #29: dye stain vs spray-only stains ...
that was me that mentioned both red and white oak .
its my own belief that using multiple color steps gives a better looking finish.....but not by much . I also think that most people will not notice much of a difference .
I actually use pigmented wiping stains 80 to 90 percent of the time . it seems to be the niche that I've found . Ive learned about dyes and toners only thru the occasional need to resort to thier use.....and because I like to learn new stuff...haha.
when I mention dyes and toners , and now probably no-wipe spray stains , at my suppliers the first response is always " why not just use regular wiping stain ?"
4/12/16 #30: dye stain vs spray-only stains ...
Robert, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to share this approach!! So I need to develop my own skills of stain matching with the dyes.
I use the dry brushing meathod with the pigment stains, but it has the same problem of too thin, old color shows through, thicker leads to, to dark, or paint.
Thanks Jim
4/12/16 #31: dye stain vs spray-only stains ...
If you want to be an elite finisher. You have to know and understand dyes and toners. Sure it is easier to use pigmented stains. That approach comes from finishers that like brown and shiny. I do not subscribe to their school of thought. Taking a methodical approach with thin layers of color will set you apart from other finishers. Educate yourself. There are plenty of videos on you tube. Read books from elite finishers and play with color. It will become second nature and someday you can help someone else out. good Luck
4/13/16 #32: dye stain vs spray-only stains ...
Robert....
whats your opinion of trans-tint dyes ? how does it stack up against MLC , SW , or others ?
I ask because trans-tint is one of only two brands that I've used . and personally , I like the trans-tint better . and it's quite versatile . the other is a triclad RTU product though , so maybe apples and oranges .
4/14/16 #33: dye stain vs spray-only stains ...
Jimmy, If you are buying for price alone, then Trans Tint is not going to be your choice. SW and MLC are comparatively less expensive. For me cost is farther down on my want list when evaluating a product. Most important attribute for me is how does it perform relative to other products. There will be plenty of people on this site that swear by SW and MLC. If you were a large shop I would probably use SW dye concentrates. Trans - Tints can be purchased in bulk to lower the cost per oz. As the creator of the product Jeff Jewitt sells them on his website Homestead Finishing Products. The reason I like Trans-Tints is the breadth of colors they have. If you need a specific color from SW or MLC it usually requires the additional effort to combat the other shade that is part of their color system. Let me give you an example. SW Brown and Black dye concentrates have a strong purple cast to them. Because of this you might have to add yellow in order to get it back to a true brown or black. With TT that is unnecessary because they already made the type of colors that are desired by our clients. You get my point. Yes for a small shop I recommend that you use TT dyes. If you are going to stock some colors I would also advise you to purchase in bulk the colors that you use often.
Homestead Finishing Products
4/14/16 #34: dye stain vs spray-only stains ...
cool ....thanks . yeah , I like the micro bottles of TT . for single pieces , small jobs and such , I keep a couple shades of brown , black , and the primaries in shop . it is pricey though in those small bottles , but better than stocking by the gallon . it can be diluted with alcohol , lac-thinner/alcohol , or even water ; and added straight to clears ( great option for WB users ) or solvent/clear-coat toners . anything but oils I think .
why no white dyes available ?
and it turns out that I do not have a spray/no-wipe product available . so tinted clear-coat or dye/tinted clear will be the answer .
4/14/16 #35: dye stain vs spray-only stains ...
Jimmy,
As I mentioned you can purchase TT in a larger size and that lowers the cost. As for a spray no wipe, you can make your own. This is what I would use. It is very much like a toner recipe. 90% Acetone or any other hot solvent. 10% vinyl sealer, and 844 pigments. You can scale the size down if necessary. Spray no wipes have pigments in them. Toners have dye in them. I have never seen a white dye. I don't see how that can be possible. If you need to lighten a color (of dye) then thin it out. Obviously there is a white pigment. I have taken very small quantities of a white stain and added it to a dye stain to muddy the color. As I said you need to experiment with dyes, pigments, toners. Look at products from other mediums. Like mica or automotive products. You can create some very unusual finishes when using a multitude of other materials. Just play.
5/21/16 #36: dye stain vs spray-only stains ...
i use dye stains on a daily basis,Ilva dye concentrates, lots of oak. if you wand to lessen the grain contrast,first washcoat the piece ,scuff and then you will prepare a dye toner nice and transparent to allow you more control to attain your final tone. the other benefit using dyes as a spray and wipe with the Ilva pd3 stain vehicle is very slow drying gives plenty of time to work the piece,another my personal fave, is being a dye i can stain and tone by adjusting my gun with the same mix .getting deep rich colors without obscuring the grain. no oils,pigments to mess up adhesion,and spray and wipe is way faster than hand application , I GUARANTY once you try this system you will use this method on all your projects
5/21/16 #37: dye stain vs spray-only stains ...
Do you guys worry about the color fastness of the dyes?
5/22/16 #38: dye stain vs spray-only stains ...
great question Pat .
Ive had people warn me of this.....and then proceed to tell some crazy tale of a dyed piece of furniture which sat next to a sliding patio door for two years and now has no color at all . well... duh .
the projects that I could monitor over any decent amount of time showed no fading at all . one was my girlfriends table top that I refinished ( light siennaish ) . the leaf sat in a closet , and after a year there was no difference between the top and the leaf .
the other project was the pine trim in my daughters house which I dye stained / tonered to match the kitchen cabs . after 3 years no noticable change .
5/22/16 #39: dye stain vs spray-only stains ...
Interesting, that is good to know, thanks.
Have there been some advances in dye products that make them more color fast?
5/23/16 #40: dye stain vs spray-only stains ...
not sure how new the metalized dyes are , but word has it that metalized dyes are tops as far as light fastness goes.
transtint is metalized dye stain.........both of the projects i mentioned were done with transtint by the way .
5/23/16 #41: dye stain vs spray-only stains ...
Thanks Jimmy, I learnt something.
5/23/16 #42: dye stain vs spray-only stains ...
Steve G.
I would like to pursue the successful use of dyes. Curious to understand exactly what you mean by wash coat? Also, where do I find the information about your methods ?
Is the best place to start by contacting Ilva? Are you achieving your color match by eye?
Thanks Jim
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