I have trying to convert to waterborne finishes.
I reached out to
Sherwin William
Rudd
Lenmar

I have sprayed lacquers for about 25 years now and have wanted to switch to waterborne. I have sprayed Sherwin Williams Kemaqua and had no problems spraying over stains.
The only company that got back with me was Sherwin Williams.
I was told by a rep for Sherwin Williams that I could use their Sayerlac system with Kemvar glaze. I figured that they knew what they were talking about but now not so sure.
This job has Raised panel doors, Maple, mdf panels.
2 coats of a white tinted hydroplus waterborne-- sanding in between-- tack cloth-- 1 coat of clear hydroplus--Kemvar glaze applied-- than a final coat of hydroplus.

The Problem---
I was cutting out outlets in an island end panel, so I applied blue tape to protect it from scratches from the sabre saw. when I pulled off the tape the finish came with it.

So since I now had to repair this I attempted to scratch off the finish with my fingernail and it comes off with little to no effort.
Only the top coat comes off, everything from the glaze down seems solidly in place.
Has anyone had any experience with this?

I have no experience with these products,but here are some general guidelines to waterbornes.

Don't use standard tackcloths. They leave behind a tacky residue that can block adhesion.

Sometimes you have to wait until a wb is cured to get full adhesion, especially between two different products. This is why I formulated Pianolac sealer and topcoat with the same resins and additives.

You can use a damp paper towel or clean rag instead of a tack cloth.

Art, Thank you for your time and expertise.
Shouldn't the rep or the store know this about the tack clothes, as I purchased the tack clothes at the same time as the hydro plus?
It really makes it tough when you cant trust the experts :-)

The Hydroplus sprays out nice and probably is a good product by itself.
Any advice on applying waterborne glazes? The waterborne glazes don't have long enough open times.

Man, I can't believe you used all new products on a job without testing. Doesn't repair mean taking it all back to the glaze or below and starting over? The person at the counter had no idea what job you were using the tack cloths on, did they?

I started out this thread explaining how it got to this point.
I talked extensively with the rep for Sherwin Williams. He told me the hydroplus would work over the Kemvar glaze. I don't believe the tack cloth left any residue that affected the adhesion.

If the rep knew his stuff than he would spec all the materials from seal coat to top coat, including a specific tack cloth designed for waterborne finishes and he would then advise accordingly.
If a rep cant do that than how can we trust anything they say.
We are not chemist, and that being the case we rely on their claims. They represent the products and should be liable for the advise they give. In todays world if you advise someone to do something and they suffer a loss you can be held responsible.

Back in the day, tech service reps were finishers who really knew their stuff. In today's world of rapidly changing employees, you're lucky if you get a tech who has read the TDS (tech data sheet).

You are ultimately responsible for the performance of the coatings you apply. Be patient and learn the ins and outs of wb coatings.

good advice, After this I wont take anyone elses word unless it makes sense to me.
I started using Kemaqua back in 2007, It was slow drying but looked okay. I had trouble trusting it. At this point it is only the Glaze application that is the issue.

I guess I will have to try GF Waterborne glaze with extender to see if it works.
I hate to say this but I feel like going back to nitrocellulose lacquers, I never had a problem with any of these, Oh the good old days, I have been in the trade since 1972, maybe its time to close the doors and work at Walmart :-)

Honestly, if you're open to going back to nitro, why not just take the next step and use a precat? they operate similarly to nitro in many ways, but they give you a definite increse in durability, plus they generally are less noxious and have more VOC control.

Most of the higher end, streamlined glazes from MLC Chemcraft and Mohawk are specially formulated to work with their lacquer products.

Thanks, I will look at these. Thanks to all I have been trying to go to waterborne for years and have never felt like the paint mfg industry was dedicated enough to get all the bugs worked out.
Thanks again to all :-)

I've never used a tack cloth in my entire career. The potential contamination issue never appealed to me. Depending on the finish a wipe with a cloth dampened with water or denatured alcohol has been our norm. On bigger projects like a boat or a room of varnished paneling we use a 5 gallon bucket of water and a damp sponge constantly rinsing it.

In a spray room compressed air gets rid of 99.9% of the dust.

Joe a little off topic but why are you cutting the end panel with a jigsaw on the face? You should be using a some type of multi-tool for face cuts. I get nervous with blue tape on any fresh finish. Or why not the cut the opening from the back before installing the panel? I know this doesn't have anything to do with your issue but something you should consider in the future.

cheers

I hav been building high end cabinets for almost 40 yrs, I have won awards in 3 states, sorry but I do know how to install and cut into cabinets. I have used blue tape forever and since the finish products worked as advertised it's never been a problem. This finish lifted because of the type of glaze used under the top coat.
I guarantee you I will never make that mistake again.
I wish the chemical industry spent as much on R&D for waterborne finishes as they did for solvent base products.
This too shall pass :-)

Hi Joe
Check out Valspars line of waterbornes.
They have glazes that work really well I found. Their line also includes cv, and pre cats in waterborne, both in solid and clears.

I have used water base finishes for about 15 years and I have only found 1 rep that knows about water base products. You have to use a water base glaze if your going to use a water base top coat. Solvent base glazes rely on a burn in affect and water base rely on a scratch pattern or a rough surface to attach it self to . The tack clothes is a no no but not as important as the solvent base glaze. Now what to do ,water bases will get harder and lock to it self when it cures and it could be years before you have a problem or it could be a month from now that it starts. I would email the rep tell him your problem and then have him come to your shop and do a sample the same way you did the job . Record the whole thing so he's on record of what is done. Good luck

I appreciate the post. I have always been more skeptical of the advice of sales people and reps.
I faltered this time by believing what the Sherwin Williams rep said.
Being new to relatively new to the waterborne finishes I thought that Sherwin Williams had developed a solvent base glaze that would work with their waterborne finishes.

What I don't get is I sent an email asking whether their waterborne topcoat would adhere to their Kemvar glaze The person I sent the email to forwarded the request for info to the Sherwin WIlliams rep. Her called me and we talked for about 20 minutes on the subject. Of course he has amnesia and does not remember saying they would work together.

I then went to their production store in Spokane Wa. where I had a long conversation with the tech there. I told him what the rep told me and ordered a glaze to match a sample. they mixed it up and sold me the Sayerlac clear top coat and never said a word about the clear not sticking to the glaze.

You would think someone would have said hey, you cant spray this clear coat over that glaze, it wont stick.

I have a bad feeling that this will end up in the courts.

One thing for sure I will never believe another rep or salesman again.

Thanks to all who have posted.

What do you think, would a nitrocellulose lacquer burn in through to the layer beneath the glaze without total destruction ??? :-)

How long did you wait to top coat after you applied the glaze? I have top coated over solvent base stains a ton of times but only after it sits 24 hours. Most glazes need to be top coated with in 6 hours or so after they are applied but those directions are for solvent base . The rule of thumb is water bases can be used over solvent base product but it must be dried completely and has to have adhesions but you can never go over water base with a solvent base. If you are going to switch to water base then everything should be waterbase. It takes some getting use to using waterbase from solvents because solvents are more forgiving and solvents have been around longer,plus I really think you need to use a some of the top guns to shoot waterbase as in a Kremlin.as for going to court good luck on that as they have tons of things in writing on how to use their product and all you have is he said she said word of mouth but nothing in writing it sounds like. Hope it works out for you but it looks like it's not the products it was the advice that was the problem.

I agree . I waited 24+ hours to top coat.
I spray with a top of the line aircoat air/assist airless. The finish is pristine, the Sayerlac sprays great and looks great but the adhesion is terrible.

I am looking at ML Campbell's waterborne finishes. Paint, lacquers and glazes, one source.
I hope it does not go to court but these 2 jobs are about 35k.
I guess we will see.
Thanks :-)