Message Thread:
taping off prefinish interiors for painting
5/6/19
i did search to no avail...but also looking for the most modern answers also if posted already and i missed.
46 yr old cabinet shop stressing over taping the prefinish interiors to paint the face frames...the time taking is mind boggling.
i thought about finishing frames first but it would be a management nightmare...
so i'm asking..has anyone found a faster way than taping with newspaper the insides so you can paint the frame cabinets?
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5/6/19 #2: taping off prefinish interiors for ...
We finish the frames first. Im not sure why its a nightmare. Maybe explain and you may be seeing something as a nightmare that isnt.
5/6/19 #3: taping off prefinish interiors for ...
thanks Mark for the reply.
what i call a "nightmare" is the time i see on the taping. drives me crazy.
so your solution is finish the frames separately. the issue that stops me initially is how to deal with end panels and finished ends. my shop has been doing this 46 yrs plus and i'd hate to add a seam (as opposed to a painted glued joint on ends to to face frame)
5/6/19 #4: taping off prefinish interiors for ...
example of a panel end, fully integrated with front frame...the seam would not be acceptable
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5/6/19 #5: taping off prefinish interiors for ...
tape the opening perimeter, then use cardboard cut on table saw to fill void and then tape cardboard from behind. way better than flimsy paper
5/6/19 #6: taping off prefinish interiors for ...
Pre taped masking plastic.
3M Pre-Taped masking plastic
5/6/19 #7: taping off prefinish interiors for ...
If your finished ends are off limits to be re-worked then your pretty much stuck.
We cut all the parts for a local shop close to retirement that also corners like you do. I dont disagree that its nice however I also have no problem with a really clean seam and slight reveal at that corner and often times think it looks nicer. For whatever reason to me (coming from the late 60's, 70's-90's) type of cabs I somewhat feel that sharp flush'd corner can look dated but its more about what your customer wants as opposed to what you want for them.
Regardless, he wont budge, so he is stuck. That said he doesnt run pre finished interiors and just clears the entire box at once.
If I were hell bent on those flush exterior corners I would simply ditch my pre-finished interiors because your losing any savings with taping off. I would just run matched interiors (if the exterior is white, interior is white, exterior clear over stain, interior is clear)
I agree. Taping off is a nightmare. Any form of cardboard is a nightmare. I would just run raw maple boxes and blast the whole thing in one shot.
Working through this in my mind would personally lead me to re evaluate or ask my customers clearly with regards to corner details "I" insist upon and find out if the are make or break for my customer.
46 years at anything can leave you with a bunch of stakes in the ground that you "think" are imperative, but really arent.
Just my 0.02
5/6/19 #8: taping off prefinish interiors for ...
yes, all very good points
no i'm not wedded to the flush corners...i'm open to over lapping frame slightly on the panel ends
also open to painting interiors and ditching the prefinish....although that seems like a zero sum game vs taping off.
5/6/19 #9: taping off prefinish interiors for ...
Website: http://customwoodmontrose.com
We finish all of our frames flat and separate. If you still need that zero corner, assemble your ends to frame and finish. Then build your prefinish interior on a finished piece
5/6/19 #10: taping off prefinish interiors for ...
Stickman has the right idea. I create a block to hold the cardboard in by folding a piece of tape sticky side out and press the cardboard in against the sticky edge. Tape more if needed. A pain all around but much less work than spraying the entire box twice. Remember when we use to spray all the drawer boxes?
5/7/19 #11: taping off prefinish interiors for ...
I would NOT cut cardboard on a table saw.
Bad things can happen, its not made for that.
You might get away with is hundreds or even thousands of times but eventually it will bight you.
5/7/19 #13: taping off prefinish interiors for ...
I dont disagree with the cardboard solution and I agree its a lot better than paper or plastic that can blow around/come loose/leak overspray. My issue with the cardboard is inventorying it, handling it, storing it, cutting it down into ever smaller pieces for odd openings that dont get used repeatedly on standard boxes, and so on.
When I have to mask I mask of with 1/2" tape then do as others have said and apply a piece of wide tape with a sticky side out flange and push the masking paper onto that. I have a simple shop made masking machine that has several widths of fairly heavy masking paper so the opening is masked in a single piece as opposed to having to mask with newspaper/pieces. But it still sucks.
I'd be with Dustin in that I'd be building the finished end and the faceframes as a unit and spraying it separately then assembling.
There are drawbacks to all of the options. The one thing I will say about the other shop I mentioned's boxes is that the interiors sure are super nice. Corners are all blown full of finish, no dry seam at the front of the box to the face frame, and so on. The interiors arent as nice as the exterior but they are darn close. That said, again, in my area, people dont really care about any of that it seems. So its something we do because we feel its right but the customer really doesnt care. Doesnt mean we build dog doo cabs, but a little adjustment isnt a bad thing.
5/7/19 #14: taping off prefinish interiors for ...
I've used both 1/8" ply and cardboard inserts cut to fit fairly tight inside the box and staple it to the backside of the face frame. Then I only have to use tape at the flush bottom rail to deck joint.
If it's an upper cabinet I put the insert in from the back and then only tack the back panel back on for painting so the 1/8" or cardboard insert can can be removed later.
My supplier has cardboard or 1/8" ply protecting bundles of sheet goods so I usually have plenty lying around.
5/7/19 #15: taping off prefinish interiors for ...
Well first off using newspaper probably doubles the time. I use standard painters paper in various widths. If you can do them on their backs it makes it much easier to navigate and it makes for easier/better spray application. Otherwise start at the top and let the paper hang. Much easier to attach the lower row of paper. Also you don't have to tape off every nook. On wide pantry cabs I'll just run 10-12" paper around the edge and leave the middle open. A damp rag with water or solvent will clean up any dust from overspray/sanding.
On those end panels you could do them separate and attach later. Bevel your face frame and end panel where they mate up. Makes for a nice look IMO.
And in the end it is what is. And I sure wouldn't ditch prefinished. I hate spraying inside cabinets. Nothing worse than sticking your head inside a cabinet and getting a face full of ricocheted finish.
my2cts good luck
PS use good 3m blue tape it actually sticks.
5/7/19 #16: taping off prefinish interiors for ...
I do as Dustin above, finish all frames separately, end panels or not. Some cabinets have two end panels. They all get painted then attached to a prefinished box.
5/7/19 #17: taping off prefinish interiors for ...
again, thank u all for the quick detailed responses.
its a tough one for sure. 30 yrs in this personally and trying to open my mind to other ideas.
i'm going to look at painting the frames and ends first, then gluing them to the box later.
also going to look at painting the whole interior instead of using prefinish ply.
5/7/19 #18: taping off prefinish interiors for ...
use a mobil masking station or hand held masking dispenser with good quality masking paper and tape if thats the way you want to do it. I have moved to prefinished frames and ends with a flush v grove joint, fastening from behind with a BEA corrugated nailer
5/8/19 #19: taping off prefinish interiors for ...
Im not sure how your attaching your face frames, pocket screws, biscuits, clamex but you could apply the paper (not news print!) but a large sheet before you attach your face frame to the box, spray and razor it out after.
5/9/19 #20: taping off prefinish interiors for ...
I’m dense, I admit it. So perhaps I’m missing something. Why not glue end panels to frames, finish and then attach to box? It might mean making your end panels 11/16” thick or your frame stiles slightly larger than 1.5” but we do this often and I’m not understanding the difficulty. A 1/4” brace that is attached to add stability through finishing from frame to end panel or on a large one a 3/4” pocket screwed brace on the inside corners. Shoot, attach, get the same look with no masking. What am I missing?
5/9/19 #21: taping off prefinish interiors for ...
I do mine like family man said. When I attach the end panel to the face frame, I put a plywood brace top and bottom to lock it at 90 degrees. These stay on through finishing, then I pocket screw the cabinet box to the frame. To secure the end panel, run a trim screw through line boring holes or other places they will not be seen. I’ve done 12’ long cabinet frames this way.
5/9/19 #22: taping off prefinish interiors for ...
frames with ends on them are awkward and prone to flexion even with bracing. and take up more room. with all the time and extra care you could finish separately and apply at the time of assembly, a bit to hard to do with a miter. I use a butt joint with a v groove. once you find a method of attaching prefinished ends that works for your shop, you will wonder why you ever farted around doing it the other way. sometimes a higher level of joinery IS required in which case you would still assemble then mask and paint like a car.
5/10/19 #23: taping off prefinish interiors for ...
Website: http://www.mahnkencabinets.com
Just by coincidence I had to mask a cabinet opening this morning. It took four minutes including photo documentation
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5/10/19 #24: taping off prefinish interiors for ...
More pics
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5/10/19 #25: taping off prefinish interiors for ...
There was no razoring or hand trimming. I have those hand dispensers set up with different widths of paper to accommodate different openings without trimming paper
5/12/19 #26: taping off prefinish interiors for ...
I cut sheets of cardboard on the table saw to fill the opening. I tape around the outside edge and then cut a little door in the middle of the opening so you can reach inside to tape it.
5/13/19 #27: taping off prefinish interiors for ...
I finish my FF and end panels separate, then attach. If a job calls for something different, than I use these brackets I cut on the CNC, pocket screw them to brace. Makes it easy to handle as well as flush trim/sand the outside corner.
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5/14/19 #28: taping off prefinish interiors for ...
We gave up on the masking.
We are in mass production mode so we had to modify “my” expectations. We plow the backs of the face frames to land on the boxes. All parts are finished in the booth and we rabbit the finished end into the face frame
Clients don’t know the difference and they don’t care.
5/15/19 #29: taping off prefinish interiors for ...
again, great thread.
chris; your pic with end panel, frame glued i tried the exact same thing on a few vanities.
in my case it was a managerial nightmare to get the finished product back to the waiting pre-finished boxes. follow the frame through the shop, remind the guys to glue it on carefully...it sucked.
in the attached pictures is the newest solution since i first asked the question. got ride of newspaper..bought a $40 roll of brown paper..its of course faster than newspaper.
still searching and refining.
this may be a bit off topic but i'm also looking at ways to build frameless cabinets to look closer to framed inset using fillers in between boxes. this way boxes are simply edgebanded with pvc and never handled once assembled. maybe i will start another thread on that.
quick background on us again...47 yr old 20 man shop custom in CT..Thermwood cnc main machining center.
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5/15/19 #30: taping off prefinish interiors for ...
Frank get a tape/paper hand dispenser and roll those cabs on their backs if possible. Your life will get better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=16&v=yQEotu20-PI
che ers
5/27/19 #31: taping off prefinish interiors for ...
We stopped masking as soon as the good Columbia prefinished ply was available. Maybe 2005? We spray everything off the boxes then pocket screw/glue the frames to the box.
The finished ends are mitered & glued if clear/stained, butted and glued if paint grade.
If it’s a one-off vanity I’d mask it, but never a multiple cabinet job like a library, wardrobe, study or kitchen.
90% of our cabinets are beaded/square inset. The beaded frames need so much prep between coats that it would be insane not to finish them separately.
I’ve mentioned a few times on WW. That the combination of pocket screws(allowing filler less attachment of frames & prefinished plywood was a massive turning point in our business.
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